Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke  (Read 3477 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

A_S00

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 84
  • Respect: +40
    • View Profile
Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« on: August 09, 2011, 05:27:46 pm »
0

Game log:  http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201108/09/game-20110809-133112-64a64f51.html

Much like the combo that's currently on the front page, looks like Baron/Duke works pretty well.  In the above game, I went for it, while my opponent went for a draw chain involving Menagerie, Envoy, and Rabble with money, and won by a large margin despite my opponent picking up three early provinces before switching horses mid-race to contest my Duke/Duchy dominance.

Like Horse Traders, Baron is a pretty good way of getting extra buys while also guaranteeing that you'll get $5 on a whole lot of turns.  Its advantage seems to be that it allows you to spam Estates for a few extra VP without worrying about greening up your deck (and the Estate-gaining ability helps your weaker turns be less useless), while the disadvantage is that you require three different cards (Baron, Estate, Copper) to hit $5 instead of (Horse Traders, Copper, Copper), which might be easier to hit.

In the game above, I was further helped by the presence of Gardens (which is always nice in a +buy deck which is already spamming coppers and greens as part of its strategy), but they didn't end up being worth as much as my Dukes/Duchies, and the points I got from them weren't the difference between winning and losing here, so I think they didn't have much effect on the game.

A couple insights from the simulator:
-A simple version of this strategy (open Baron/Silver or Baron/Estate, then prioritize Duke/Duchy>Baron>Silver>Estate>Copper) beats Big Money Ultimate handily, and _Single Envoy narrowly.
-If you happen to hit an $8 turn, buying Provinces actually hurts this strategy, since it makes it easier to end the game on Provinces instead of piles.  It's a big enough difference that whether or not you have a Province buy at the top of the list is the difference between narrowly beating Envoy Big Money and narrowly losing to it.
-Loses narrowly to the equivalent HT/Duke strategy that was posted (using the same buy order I outlined above, but with HT instead of Baron).
-Gets stomped by Money+Attack decks (_Single Witch, BM Mountebank, and MB Militia all win around 75%).

And finally, stuff I wanted to ask you guys:
-What do you think my opponent should have done differently, if anything?  Was switching strategies to fight me in the Duchy race a bad idea?
-If you're trying to pull this off, when (if ever) do you think it's a good idea to favor Estates over Silvers?  Or should you just assume that, with all those Barons, you're going to empty Estates anyway and always favor Silver?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 08:39:32 pm »
0

I'm extremely skeptical. First off, as a helpful tip, you shouldn't be buying dukes until the duchies are basically all gone. In fact, probably until they are all gone in 2-player. Furhtermore, I just sorta doubt that with the shuffle luck, you'll be able to pull of $5 as consistently as you want to. Finally, Gardens is a big boon for your strategy, as Baron/Gardens is actually halfway reasonable (though not terribly good without more help). Finally, your opponent, well, let's say (s)he didn't really seem to have any strategy at all as they went through the game. Their buys really didn't gel together basically at all.

Can you post your sim bot here so that we can analyze it some more?

A_S00

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 84
  • Respect: +40
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 10:15:46 pm »
0

Oh, it didn't really occur to me that you should do anything but buy whichever of Duke/Duchy would get you more points at any given time, but of course you're right, since your opponent is better served by competing for Duchies (3 each) than Dukes (probably not worth much if they weren't competing for Duchies).

I've updated the bot slightly, and the HT/Duke bot I've been using to compete with it, to account for the fact that near the end of the game, you need to start favoring Estates over the $4 card and Silver.  Here they both are:

Code: [Select]
<player name="baron/duke">
   <buy name="Baron">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duke">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <extra_operation type="minus" attribute="3.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Baron"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Code: [Select]
<player name="ht/duke">
   <buy name="Horse_Traders">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Horse_Traders"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duke">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <extra_operation type="minus" attribute="3.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Horse_Traders"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Throwing in this update has widened the margin from something like 49%>45% (I think that's what it was with the versions I was using when I posted) to 52%>43%, with HT/Duke still coming out on top.  The newer Baron/Duke beats Big Money Ultimate 69%>29%, _Single Envoy 55%>42%, and ties BM - Envoy 49%=49%.

*edit* Oh, right, the other thing I removed from HT/Duke which helped it was a rule to always buy Estates with $2, which it shouldn't really do until the end-game.  I think that's what widened the gap since I posted.

*edit 2* Ooh, you're definitely right about the Duchy>Duke thing, it doesn't matter when both players are going for both cards, but favoring Duchies more heavily makes a big difference against BM strategies, makes the difference between winning and losing substantially vs. BM - Envoy.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 10:32:27 pm by A_S00 »
Logged

Razzishi

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eye Urn
  • Respect: +120
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 12:46:14 am »
0

I think the question about Baron with a Duke strategy is whether or not it beats other strategies that use Baron.  Just about to go to bed so I don't want to look at it right now, but have you looked at how well the strategy does against an opponent who buys one Baron and otherwise plays BM?  I'm sure it's fine in getting to $5 when it draws Baron, but the reason HT works so well with Duke is that it's not useful for getting as large amounts of money as Baron; HT turns 3 cards into $3, Baron turns 2 into $4.
Logged
Stop reading my signature.

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 01:01:59 am »
0

I've also played this several times:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110730-082920-9241da70.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110702-034438-d23ae593.html

I think one crucial thing in both games was that there was a helpful $2 card available to make use the +buys (because you get the estates quite early anyway).

No idea how this would have turned out against really good opponents though.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 01:04:00 am by kn1tt3r »
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 02:17:30 am »
0

I think the question about Baron with a Duke strategy is whether or not it beats other strategies that use Baron.  Just about to go to bed so I don't want to look at it right now, but have you looked at how well the strategy does against an opponent who buys one Baron and otherwise plays BM?  I'm sure it's fine in getting to $5 when it draws Baron, but the reason HT works so well with Duke is that it's not useful for getting as large amounts of money as Baron; HT turns 3 cards into $3, Baron turns 2 into $4.
Baron/BM looses 1:2 against Baron/HT.

Getting $4 for 2 cards is not really good for a BM, as this is exactly what Silver gives you. Which is good when going for provinces, esp. as you have gotten value from the estate, but not totally overpowered strong. And you only get the money if you hit the estates, and there are only 3 of them in the deck. This might be quite likely at the beginning, but for Big Money the likelihood that this will happen drastically reduces, and then it's $0 for 1 card.
Logged

tko

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 10:14:56 am »
0

This isn't Baron-related (subject of this thread) but in the spirit of alternate Duke strategies, I was also inspired by the article last night to try for Dukes, and I went for it with Trade Route in this game.  Maybe I should have bought Copper like the article suggested as it was a very close victory.  Also, my play may be somewhat suspect going for Talisman. 
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4071
  • Respect: +2611
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 10:57:06 am »
0

I don't see baron + duke being a winner. The estates and baron will hinder be a mismatch with the rest of the deck. Throw in a warehouse and you might resolve all that.

Baron + gardens is fine. You get some quick acceleration at the start from the barons, you can expand your deck very quickly, and exhausting 3 piles becomes easier when estates are emptied as fast as the gardens.
Logged

Reyk

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 146
  • Respect: +24
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 11:01:27 am »
0

I was also inspired by the article last night to try for Dukes, and I went for it with Trade Route

Trade Route with support (Nobles here) is usually good for Duchy/Duke. But I'm not sure for this game as Colonies are available. Hard to say how to play this setup. Seems difficult to get anything going for Forge for example. At first glance his Nobles were weak without support (and even helped you to end the game). Maybe Big Money with a Trade Route is best? There won't be much use for the plus buy except a Cellar sometimes, but still. Maybe Single Torturer/BM is an option too.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 11:09:14 am »
0

Your Baron/Duke bot loses to my Big Money/Duke bot 55-38.
Taking 20 seconds to improve your bot, it then beats my big money/Duke 54/40.
So yes, it seems as though if there's absolutely nothing else on the board, this is a good strategy. However, I imagine on 90% of the boards this is possible on, something else better is there. Incidentally, either fishing village or lighthouse might well be better than silver for this deck.

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1488
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 11:17:54 am »
0

How does you BM/Duke-bot works? I beat it 65/30, so your Big Money seems to be better than mine...
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2011, 11:50:50 am »
0

BM Duke:
Code: [Select]
<player name="Big Money Duke">
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="14.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="7.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duke">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Improved Baron/Duke (like I said, I took like 20 seconds to make the improvements, so I haven't tuned it):
Code: [Select]
<player name="Baron/Duke">
   <buy name="Baron">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Baron"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

A_S00

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 84
  • Respect: +40
    • View Profile
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2011, 11:54:35 am »
0

Baron/Gardens does indeed beat this, 56%>42% by my (rather simplistic) implementation:
Code: [Select]
<player name="baron/gardens">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Baron">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
   <buy name="Baron"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>
...which answers my question about what my opponent should have done differently.  Although, if I change my Baron/Duke bot to start contesting Gardens after the first one is bought:
Code: [Select]
<player name="baron/duke">
   <buy name="Baron">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Baron"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duke">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Duchy"/>
         <extra_operation type="minus" attribute="6.0" />
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Gardens">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Gardens"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Duke"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Baron"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>
...it wins out again, 67%>30%.  So, maybe not.

In keeping with having posted this in Game Reports, does anybody have a bot using cards that were available in the supply in my game that beats Baron/Duke?  Or was that board actually so terrible that this was the optimal strategy :P ?

*edit* Aha, BM with Jesters wins 50%>47% against Baron/Duke (Winder's improved version):
Code: [Select]
<player name="BM - Jester">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Jester">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Jester"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Jester">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Jester"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
Kewl.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:05:21 pm by A_S00 »
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4368
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Combo (with game report): Baron/Duke
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2011, 12:09:14 pm »
0

In keeping with having posted this in Game Reports, does anybody have a bot using cards that were available in the supply in my game that beats Baron/Duke?  Or was that board actually so terrible that this was the optimal strategy :P ?

A simple Jester bot will beat it narrowly. A simple Rabble bot will beat it pretty handily. And those aren't trying to contest your strategy by buying duchies a bit early. So it doesn't look to be best.
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.084 seconds with 21 queries.