Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?  (Read 2015 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

meow

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« on: September 06, 2012, 02:16:55 am »
0

Really frustrating game.  Feels like it was mostly bad luck / 1st player advantage, but was hoping to get some input:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/05/game-20120905-230849-190e998f.html
cards in supply: Caravan, Farming Village, Forge, Goons, Loan, Market, Menagerie, Secret Chamber, Trade Route, and Worker's Village

I started 2/5 and didn't get a $3 hand until turn 8.  Maybe I should have bought a silver or loan rather than 1 of my 1st 2 Caravans?

Looking at it now, it seems like his shuffles were quite good and 4/3 might be the better start on this board.  I would think buying 1 silver would be better than hoping to get to $6 while trashing coppers with the loan, but hard to say I suppose.
Logged
meow @ f.ds & BSW
SpaceSquirrel @ IsoTropic

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1574
  • Respect: +4419
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2012, 07:33:02 am »
+10

First of all, let me say you had some pretty bad luck on the most important shuffles of the game.
But it's a really cool board and quite interesting how to play this. My analysis would go something like this...

* This is 100% an engine board. Setting up the biggest Goons turn is going to be game-deciding.
* Trashing is going to be very important. At first sight, there's two options: slow & steady with Loan/Trade Route, or all at once with Forge.
* Drawing is somewhat problematic for the first stage of the game. Menagerie will become a power house in the end.
* Getting the first Goons quickly is not as important as usual, because the discard attack is somewhat countered by menagerie.
* I really like the menageries here, and caravan doesn't really help it.

The first real question for me would be To Forge or Not To Forge.
Now that I've given it some thought, the answer is very clear: not to forge.
I can't really draw big hands, because menagerie would only really work after Forge and Forge will only really work after menagerie activates.
It's a nice dream but way too slow, and besides it's just too painfull if you finally draw your Forge and then get attacked by Goons.

On the other hand a deck with both a Loan and a Trade Route could get those Menageries up & running quite fast.
I can pick up a single card of Working Village, Farming Village, Caravan, Silver, Secret Chamber... all quite cheap.

So actual plans...

prefered opening: Loan/Trade Route. I want cheap cards at the start and no point in building economy first.
On turns 3/4 I hope to remove 2 cards, and get myself a Silver and a Workers Village.
Instead, a Silver and a Menagerie or a Silver and a Secret Chamber would be acceptable too.
I don't really plan on getting Caravans, although they won't hurt. I'd much rather have Working Villages.
I don't want more money in. Loan has to keep hitting Coppers, and I'll get plenty of money from Market, Goons & Secret Chamber if the Menageries kick in. If the draws on t3/4 are really good I might even skip on that first Silver.

on your game:

opening 5/2 is sort of horrible on getting 3-cost cards. I would probably *sigh* and get a Market too. I don't like it, but it should allow me to skip on buying any Silvers. I agree with the Secret Chamber, and also with buying nothing on your next turn. After that you get the fourth nightmare hand, but now it's really time for the Loan on t4. As said before, Caravans don't really help a deck that will rely on Menagerie for draw.
On turn 5, I really want a Trade Route, but since you could probably also get it turn 6 (still before the next shuffle), I'd use this 5 for another Market as well. It just might help me do a double-Menagerie turn next cycle. Turn 6 would be the forementioned Trade Route.

If this would be enough to make up for the lost turn 2 & 3 is hard to say. If your opponent keeps buying Caravans it just might, but his lead is already quite significant...
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

Forge!!!

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • Respect: +128
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2012, 09:04:02 am »
0

First of all, let me say you had some pretty bad luck on the most important shuffles of the game.
But it's a really cool board and quite interesting how to play this. My analysis would go something like this...

* This is 100% an engine board. Setting up the biggest Goons turn is going to be game-deciding.
* Trashing is going to be very important. At first sight, there's two options: slow & steady with Loan/Trade Route, or all at once with Forge.
* Drawing is somewhat problematic for the first stage of the game. Menagerie will become a power house in the end.
* Getting the first Goons quickly is not as important as usual, because the discard attack is somewhat countered by menagerie.
* I really like the menageries here, and caravan doesn't really help it.

The first real question for me would be To Forge or Not To Forge.
Now that I've given it some thought, the answer is very clear: not to forge.
I can't really draw big hands, because menagerie would only really work after Forge and Forge will only really work after menagerie activates.
It's a nice dream but way too slow, and besides it's just too painfull if you finally draw your Forge and then get attacked by Goons.

On the other hand a deck with both a Loan and a Trade Route could get those Menageries up & running quite fast.
I can pick up a single card of Working Village, Farming Village, Caravan, Silver, Secret Chamber... all quite cheap.

So actual plans...

prefered opening: Loan/Trade Route. I want cheap cards at the start and no point in building economy first.
On turns 3/4 I hope to remove 2 cards, and get myself a Silver and a Workers Village.
Instead, a Silver and a Menagerie or a Silver and a Secret Chamber would be acceptable too.
I don't really plan on getting Caravans, although they won't hurt. I'd much rather have Working Villages.
I don't want more money in. Loan has to keep hitting Coppers, and I'll get plenty of money from Market, Goons & Secret Chamber if the Menageries kick in. If the draws on t3/4 are really good I might even skip on that first Silver.

on your game:

opening 5/2 is sort of horrible on getting 3-cost cards. I would probably *sigh* and get a Market too. I don't like it, but it should allow me to skip on buying any Silvers. I agree with the Secret Chamber, and also with buying nothing on your next turn. After that you get the fourth nightmare hand, but now it's really time for the Loan on t4. As said before, Caravans don't really help a deck that will rely on Menagerie for draw.
On turn 5, I really want a Trade Route, but since you could probably also get it turn 6 (still before the next shuffle), I'd use this 5 for another Market as well. It just might help me do a double-Menagerie turn next cycle. Turn 6 would be the forementioned Trade Route.

If this would be enough to make up for the lost turn 2 & 3 is hard to say. If your opponent keeps buying Caravans it just might, but his lead is already quite significant...

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I was thinking too.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 09:06:59 am »
0

There are many ways to get to the same destination here. Each way will have some problems and the draws could easily hide or expose the problems in any single game. So anyway, I'll suggest skipping the secret chamber on turn 2 (and 3). I'm guessing there would be chances later to buy one if needed. At the start it's only giving you value if you have two estates in hand. Later on it will allow some fancy tricks with the reaction and discarding but you might not even need those and it adds clutter to the deck, a deck that will need plenty of goons and either a trade route or a forge.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 09:08:26 am by DG »
Logged

carstimon

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 194
  • Respect: +115
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 12:44:58 pm »
0

For a 4/3 start: really trade route/loan?  I just hate opening trade route.  I'd rather get something going early with caravan/loan or silver/loan, getting 2 caravans max then menag.  This makes it reasonable to hope for a $7.  If not maybe a $6 and while the early goons isn't necessary, it's pretty good for economy.
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 01:56:38 pm »
0

Why is SC good buy? I recon you won't be greening with Goons, I guess it's cuz it works with Menagerie?. It can't be the reactions.
Logged

-Stef-

  • 2012 & 2016 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1574
  • Respect: +4419
    • View Profile
Re: Goons game ... bad luck or bad play?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 06:09:20 pm »
0

Why is SC good buy? I recon you won't be greening with Goons, I guess it's cuz it works with Menagerie?. It can't be the reactions.
To be honest I don't know if its good enough this early.

good news:
* it's a card you don't have yet (menagerie)
* later on you can discard doubles (once again menagerie)
* it sort of allows you to skip buying money and yet have some chance at hitting $6 (activating menagerie into discard all 6)
* a lot later on the reaction actually will be quite good

bad news:
* it's a lousy card, and makes your deck cycles larger
* it's a terminal, and if you also draw trade route it's a card that might stop you from hitting $3

The bad news is quite important, especially early.
OK, you got me, I'll switch to "I think it's a bad buy, but I'm not sure".
Logged
Join the Dominion League!
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.851 seconds with 21 queries.