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Author Topic: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread  (Read 8212 times)

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Qvist

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IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« on: September 05, 2012, 06:58:38 pm »
+1

I just played the finals against Teproc. We didn't knew for sure if it was Best of 5 or Best of 7, so we played a Best of 7.

I will go to bed now and I forgot to save the logs. But I have the video. So, I won't spoil the ending. Just watch the video:



DG

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 06:04:48 pm »
+1

DG vs Stef adjourned at 2-2. Some good games already to amuse you all though.

Stef 60 : 29 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-133848-ffc376e0.html
Stef XX : 1   DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-134520-f65cdcfc.html
Stef 28 : 27 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-140100-74b9b3c5.html
Stef 17 : 21 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/09/game-20120909-143051-18e911e2.html

The first game took a long time. A lot of thought went into those 14 turns. We were both doing the same sort of things, remaking out the starting cards, thinning down, doing tricks with border villages and remakes. I would have done the same finish as Stef with minted platinum converted to colonies but I thought I'd run out of time when I got there, so I gambled on some pirates instead and they were a complete bust. Interestingly the advantage Stef had in border villages was significant, just as villages, and they allowed play with courtyards that I'd skipped entirely.

The second game was a big minions wipout. It can happen. I think I'd lost a game against Guided two years ago buying an upgrade before minions and it had stuck in my mind. Anyway perhaps others can say whether it is upgrade or minion first here.

Third game was big wharf drawing. The interesting part is the endgame. There were five native villages in the supply and two empty piles. On turn 11 I had an expand and 4 buys, enough to tie the game but not win. I took the decision to expand out one estate for a council room and buy the colony to raise the bar for Stef (five native villages and a colony). This was actually a mistake as I'd missed the quarry potentially bringing the cost of the native villages to zero. Anyway on turn 12 Stef has the same 5 buys, not enough to win, so takes colony and council room. My turn 12 again gives 5 buys, not quite enough to empty piles and win. Turn 13 and Stef has 6 buys and expand and quarry, enough for the native villages, province, and colony for the one point win.

Fourth game was an interesting golem mess. I skipped a remake trying to reach up to the an early golem then power on, looking to clean up as I went with the steward. Stef took the remake as well and tried to build up from small. The black market had a variety of goodies. Peddlers were present but not simple. My deck did indeed come to fruition sooner and I decided to cash in and push for provinces. Stef took a good outpost and had great late potential but it was always going to be at the mercy of the golem draws and I got a good one to finish with useful salvage.
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ycz6

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 12:46:03 am »
0

Oh man, how exciting!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 12:58:13 am »
0

The second game was a big minions wipout. It can happen. I think I'd lost a game against Guided two years ago buying an upgrade before minions and it had stuck in my mind. Anyway perhaps others can say whether it is upgrade or minion first here.
I don't think it really mattered if that had been an Upgrade or Minion for Stef, as he never got to play it.
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-Stef-

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 08:08:41 am »
0

My thoughts on our first 4 games...


Game 1 was the most ineteresting one. It's reasonably clear how this engine is supposed to work in the end, but how to get there is a really tricky question.

My first analysis...
* Once powered up, this engine is very powerfull
* I want to open Remake.
* To continue effective remaking, I want big hands.
* Big hands can be done with governor, but that helps him a lot too. Getting to $6 fast for Border Village/Courtyard is preferred.

I was a bit in doubt between (a) Remake/Silver and (b) Remake/Courtyard.
In favor of (b)
* If I get the Remake turn 3 and the courtyard turn 4 that's so good it's almost game-winning.
* A clash on turn 3 is not so bad, I can just put the remake back.

In favor of (a)
* This feels like the lesser risk. I have a reasonable chance of hitting Remake and $5 in t3/4
* If the two cards clash on turn 4, I just have to play the remake. A dead card in this hand implies only $1 left so no buy.

Looking a day later at these arguments, I'd open courtyard/Remake on the same board next time. Not yesterday, and I got the courtyard turn 4. This is also where our plans start diverging, as he opted for a second Remake. That didn't feel good to me, as I wanted to hit $6 quick.

This still feels like a good plan, but since I hit $6 on turn 5 without using the courtyard, I can't claim it worked. I continued to get Border Villages and more courtyards though, and in the end using one Remake more effectively proved a lot better then using two Remakes.

His desperate move to get Pirate Ships seemed like a reasonable gambit. I couldn't think of any third pile to deplete, so I just kept buying points untill the game ended.


After the first game, Game 2 was a bit of a horror. It looked like it was going to be a minion-upgrade mirror (really nothing else to do) but he wanted almost all of the minions for himself. Two questions that could have been interesting, but were completely irrelevant on these draws.
* You open with a silver and a) woodcutter b) fortune teller c) another silver
* On your first $5, do you get a minion or an upgrade? does it depend on the # of "Silvers" you already have?

I went for Fortune Teller because I thought I'd get the woodcutter long before I needed the buy from an upgraded estate anyway, and it's attack just might help enough to be worth that.


Game 3 featured a powerfull Wharf engine with some of it's best friends: A cheap village (Native Village) and cheap money (both Fools Gold and Quarry).

I really like the quarry here, and in a 3P or 4P game I'd love to just open Quarry/Silver or even Quarry/Native Village. But in 2P, I just can't give him 10 Fools Golds. Right after I decide to compete for the Fools Golds, with the shuffle-nightmare from last game still fresh in my mind, I find out that he opens 5/2 on this board. Oh no's!

After this bad news I was really glad to find out he only drew his Wharf turn 5. He still was going to win the split, but at least we had some sort of a game.

On turn 6 I think he makes his only serious misplay in this series, getting an Expand over a Native Village/Wharf. Native village is a superstrong addition to the wharves; almost as powerfull as the Bazar but $3 cheaper. And more draw just means more Fools Golds sticking together...

He skips on Native Villages completely, and adds a single Quarry and Potion that didn't feel too strong at the moment. A few turns later it really feels like I get to steal a lost game.
I lacked 1 buy the turn before, and apparantly he also lacked 1 buy to get it in the last two turns.

Game 5 is just too complex, and with Black Market a lot can happen. I thought a while about not building an engine at all, but I think you'd lose bigtime. In hindsight I feel really sorry for not opening Young Witch, and since his opening was better then mine I think he really deserved to win this one. But it still could have gone either way. A lot of turns were just "play the golem and close your eyes" (the other way around is significantly worse ;))
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 12:46:37 am »
+1

blueblimp 3 - 0 Young Nick

Game 1: Young Nick 32 - blueblimp 56
Game 2: Young Nick 34 - blueblimp 85
Game 3: Young Nick 19 - blueblimp 25

(Boring notes: We played assuming Bo5. Not sure if that was correct. We played a ton of extra games too, if it turns out to matter (although obviously we'd play somewhat differently if they were tournament games). All games were with iso point counter, no extension.)

Fun kingdoms that I felt played to my strengths.

Game 1: With a Wharf/Inn/Grand Market engine possible, plus Colonies present, Amb is an absolute must-buy IMO. YN skips it early, and I win fairly comfortably. As p2, I would be pretty scared if he had opened Amb.

Game 2: This kingdom allows for a KC/Grand Market/Laboratory/Quarry explosion, and Moneylender doesn't hurt either. YN skips Quarry, which I feel was the deciding factor as it can enable crazy mega-turns here--my last two turns, for example. (Oh yeah, and Colonies were here again.)

Game 3: Here we have the same idea: Salvager/Silver into Wharf/Bazaar/Village engine. My approach is slightly different, as I didn't buy any Bazaars until the Wharfs emptied, while getting Village a bit earlier. This approach plus favourable luck gets me a 6-4 Wharf split as second player, which leads to a win.

Thanks also to YN for a bunch of fun post-series games.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 12:48:01 am by blueblimp »
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 12:57:19 am »
+1

So, yeah, not my finest games. It killed me knowing that I had beaten him in Swiss play, only to lose here. The problem with the first two kingdoms, especially, is that if you stumble a slight bit, things get out of hand quite quickly; those were not recoverable kingdoms.

I acknowledge that skipping Ambassador was stupid in the first game. I was hoping to get them later, but it never turned out that way.

In the second game, I also had great intentions of building the same engine. I opened Moneylender in hopes of spiking an early Grand Market or King's Court. As it turns out I had a lot Copper-fueled 7's early and massed King's Court. Let me tell you King's Courting an Oasis is not that cool. However, that KC-Oasis action led to more KC's and then, later, poor-decision Platinum buys. I shouldn't have been afraid to overspend for the +buy that Grand Market had to offer. I kept on thinking that as soon as I had a two-buy turn that I would get multiple Quarries. Silly me.

The third game was all about my buying Bazaars instead of more Wharves and Villages, yet I still thought I was in the driver's seat. I was pretty on tilt about my 0-2 deficit and poor play at this point, anyway, though.

After this, I requested another casual match just to let me blow off some steam. blueblimp, as always, was a gentleman and accepted. Did I mention that I had to take about 5 minutes before the start of the first game to get collected and then a 20 minute break and that he was incredibly sportsmanlike about both? Yeah, he's a cool dude. Anyway, after that one ended, we chatted and after we got booted to the lobby, we played some more, partially for the Dominion and partially for the conversation. We must have played at least 12 games total, between this and the actual match!

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dondon151

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 01:30:20 am »
0

Question for everyone: in YN vs. blueblimp game 1, would you rather open Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/Feast? or Silver/Feast, or Feast/Warehouse, or...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:34:34 am by dondon151 »
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 01:33:10 am »
+2

Question for everyone: in YN vs. blueblimp game 1, would you rather open Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/Feast?

You forgot Silver / Feast!

I'll go back to crying in a corner now.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 01:52:33 am »
0

Congrats to blueblimp!

In that first game, I'd be tempted to try Amb/Warehouse into Amb/Silver on 3/4/5.  Anything to find that Amb a second time early on... it's not like you care that you only have three cards in hand at that point.

-----

Also since I didn't say it, congrats to Qvist for the Bracket C win!
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 07:06:30 am »
0

Thanks Kirian,
also congrats blueblimp from me.
And I'm really curious how DG vs. -Stef- will end.

Not that I will have much chance. But how about a 3-player game series with all winners from all brackets?

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 08:09:30 am »
0

Quote
Question for everyone: in YN vs. blueblimp game 1, would you rather open Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/Feast?

Ambassador/warehouse. This isn't without some problems though. You will need to tailor your deck development to the play of your opponent and it's pretty hard to predict the exact steps needed to get that grand market monster deck started.
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-Stef-

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 09:08:09 am »
+2

Quote
Question for everyone: in YN vs. blueblimp game 1, would you rather open Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/Feast?

Ambassador/warehouse. This isn't without some problems though. You will need to tailor your deck development to the play of your opponent and it's pretty hard to predict the exact steps needed to get that grand market monster deck started.

At first I was inclined to agree with DG, but now I think I want to try to hit $5 earlier.

I'm tempted by double tact, inn, amb, vault instead of the wharves route you're taking here.
It will be worse in the end (can't profit from platinum) but stronger at the start (easier Grand Markets).
Strong starts tend to be more important. Maybe I can even transverge into a wharf strategy from there using salvagers.

That means I need three cards costing $5 before my deck is flooded with crap by an opponent hitting ambassador heavy with ambassador/warehouse.
I think it's doable. Getting the first Tactician will somehat provide for the rest. I don't need a really small deck, because tact+vault can handle quite some coppers/estates.

So now my plan would be to start Silver/Ambassador, and the next round hope for Tactician/-, or maybe Warehouse/Salvager if I don't hit $5.

Really tricky question though, and if this was a predesigned kingdom for a tournament I'd want to playtest this set a lot.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 09:56:08 am »
+1

Quote
Question for everyone: in YN vs. blueblimp game 1, would you rather open Amb/Amb, Amb/Silver, or Amb/Feast?

Ambassador/warehouse. This isn't without some problems though. You will need to tailor your deck development to the play of your opponent and it's pretty hard to predict the exact steps needed to get that grand market monster deck started.

At first I was inclined to agree with DG, but now I think I want to try to hit $5 earlier.

I'm tempted by double tact, inn, amb, vault instead of the wharves route you're taking here.
It will be worse in the end (can't profit from platinum) but stronger at the start (easier Grand Markets).
Strong starts tend to be more important. Maybe I can even transverge into a wharf strategy from there using salvagers.

That means I need three cards costing $5 before my deck is flooded with crap by an opponent hitting ambassador heavy with ambassador/warehouse.
I think it's doable. Getting the first Tactician will somehat provide for the rest. I don't need a really small deck, because tact+vault can handle quite some coppers/estates.

So now my plan would be to start Silver/Ambassador, and the next round hope for Tactician/-, or maybe Warehouse/Salvager if I don't hit $5.

Really tricky question though, and if this was a predesigned kingdom for a tournament I'd want to playtest this set a lot.

Seems like with Tact/Vault here, if you've got all that crap, you're going to need at least three Tacticians, and then you're still not going to hit double-Tact every time through.  Especially if your opponent doubles up on Ambassadors and keeps sending you coppers through the whole game.

And if you really need that first $5, wouldn't grabbing a Feast be better?  Almost as though YN's opening would be best for making that happen (though pulling the Feast on T5 is bad luck).
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 10:21:03 am »
+1

I didn't look at the game log in-depth, but based only on Stef's analysis and Kirian's reply, I'd tend to think Amb/Feast would probably be a better way of setting up a double Tact/Amb (/Inn/Vault) engine, too. Playing the Tactician will help with getting $5's later on, and the Silver won't be particularly necessary at that point. What seems really critical is getting a $5 on turns 3/4, which Feast obviously is a lot better at accomplishing than Silver. Starting turn 5, when your deck will be crappy (because of opponent's Ambassador), Tactician and Ambassador will be far and away the key cards in your deck, to the point where having one less decent card (Silver) isn't even that bad, because one card less in the deck means greater chance of hitting Tactician and/or Ambassador, and when Tactician triggers, you're getting to $5 with or without Silver in the deck (and when Tactician doesn't trigger, you're decently likely to not hit $5 anyway with Silver).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:22:20 am by Fabian »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 06:42:22 am »
0

I didn't look at the game log in-depth, but based only on Stef's analysis and Kirian's reply, I'd tend to think Amb/Feast would probably be a better way of setting up a double Tact/Amb (/Inn/Vault) engine, too. Playing the Tactician will help with getting $5's later on, and the Silver won't be particularly necessary at that point. What seems really critical is getting a $5 on turns 3/4, which Feast obviously is a lot better at accomplishing than Silver. Starting turn 5, when your deck will be crappy (because of opponent's Ambassador), Tactician and Ambassador will be far and away the key cards in your deck, to the point where having one less decent card (Silver) isn't even that bad, because one card less in the deck means greater chance of hitting Tactician and/or Ambassador, and when Tactician triggers, you're getting to $5 with or without Silver in the deck (and when Tactician doesn't trigger, you're decently likely to not hit $5 anyway with Silver).

Opening with Feast is at least a very interesting suggestion. I dislike Feast so strongly that I usually don't even consider it. I know a silver doesn't give the same chance at hitting $5, but not having to trash the silver almost always makes up for it. In this game that trashing is not problem, but the other card I want to open is a terminal (Ambassador).

Drawing amb and feast in one hand is nightmare, but drawing them in different hands is really nice. You can probably ambassador something, and get a tactician and a warehouse.
Drawing amb and silver in one hand is not that much better (although warehouse is a nice buy, and followed up by a salvager you still have some game)

It already was a difficult set, and now you make it harder ;)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 10:26:51 am »
0

In the Bronze match Mic Qsenoch 3:0 HME
Game 1: Mic Qsenoch 51:29 HME - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/16/game-20120916-060837-6b74e035.html
Game 2: Mic Qsenoch > HME - (we both forgot the log)
Game 3: Mic Qsenoch 57:41 HME - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201209/16/game-20120916-064016-cb73c85e.html

Game 1 was a Highway/Market board with Possession and Gardens. I decided to not go Highway/Market to be safe from Possession, but didn't switch to Possession when he went for it, so he wisely continued on for the easy win.
Game 2 had Goons/Nobles/Wharf with Menagerie and Fool's Gold. I decided to add some early FGs thinking I'd be able to pick up multiple components per turn, but the delay in buying Nobles cost me the split, and then I had too many FGs to do anything.
Game 3 he went with a simple HP stack with Jester, while tried to make things interesting by diving into the Black Market. There were a lot of good things in there, but with no village in the kingdom, I couldn't really play them all early and often enough to stop the HP stack.

In all 3 games, Mic Qsenoch made the better strategic choice, and exacted regevenge for his Round 1 defeat to claim the Bronze. Congrats!
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-Stef-

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 05:39:43 pm »
+4

DG and I just finished our final series. Last time we suspended at 2-2.

Game 5 featured a lot of yellow cards. I decided I wanted a loan pretty quickly, but apart from that it was less clear. Fishing village lost its natural appeal because there's basicly nothing to play in the set. Island is nice.

I started up with fishing village anyway, because I wanted to let my loan do it's work for a while and in the same time not get stranded with barely any money. He went for an island straight away. Then I just had some luck and he had a lot of bad luck, and it was over before we really started.

Game 6 looked really weird for me to play. A half-baked engine versus Fools Gold. I play a lot of games like this but then it's always me building the engine and the other person praying I don't make it. Now I was on the praying side. His engine had some real trouble starting up, with university being the only village. I got my 3rd province rather fast, but even though I had 9 Fools Gold I stalled quite hard after that.

Stalling is so horrible if your turns take only a sec, and then you just have to wait and wait and wait...
Fortunately he also bought some (2) provinces. And probably that's exactly what cost him the game.
With more time his bishops would have ran me over.

I'd say our first four games were a lot better then the last two. But hey, it's the last one that counts  ::)

After the match was over, we played a friendly game to try out the doubletact vs wharf discussion from above. The logs are right here, but I think we both made a lot of mistakes. Concentration was just gone. However we both did feel double tact was a must play here, just not sure how to start it. I tried Fabians plan with the feast but got a clash.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 05:48:38 pm »
+1

So, congratulations to Stef. This is a good competition with a good entry field and we have a well deserved winner.

Game 5 - I didn't set out to play it that way but with those draws I was scratching around for something to get going. In hindsight it was one of those times when you shouldn't use the island to put a copper on the mat.

Game 6 - I was very dubious about the engine but there was a risk that once it started it could score heavily at the end. I followed my fears and went with the engine rather than something simple with woodcutter and fool's gold. Stef is right about the provinces but I don't think I would have been able to harness the bishops necessary to score the points anyway. I needed far more universities and they arrived into my deck far too slowly. 
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 05:54:14 pm »
0

Congrats to Stef!!  And thanks guys for trying out that kingdom above, I'll have to scour that log.

In the next few days I'll post about the future of IsoDom.  In the meantime, congrats again to Stef, blueblimp, and Qvist!
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Finals Thread
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2012, 03:31:09 am »
0

Congrats to -Stef-. Interesting games for sure. And thanks Kirian for organizing
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