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Author Topic: Province Theft  (Read 2489 times)

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Loschmidt

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Province Theft
« on: September 04, 2012, 11:30:00 pm »
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--Province Theft--

Stealing Provinces directly from another playerís deck is the ultimate insult in Dominion (in the absence of Colonies obviously). Dark Ages has finally given us a way to pull this off (aside from Masquerade shenanigans of course).

Highway/Sabotuer/Grave Robber is the most effective way to pull this off, but it isn't your only option. Lets go through all of the components of this attack/combo too see all of the options; it turns out there is a reasonable degree of flexibility in the required kingdoms.

--Components--

Trash Retrieval:

This is the key card. Trashing enemy provinces has been possible since Intrigue, but getting them out of the trash is a more recent possibility.
-Rogue: Rogueís are ideal as they play double duty as a Trashing Attack also.
-Grave Robber: Grave Robber is a fine substitute and the remodel ability may help you set up your engine.

Price Reduction:

This is also a required component. None of the Trash Retrieval cards are capable of getting Provinces from the trash without help.
-Highway: We want at least a $2 reduction but ideally a $5 reduction. Highways being cantrips will make this easier to pull off.
-Bridge: Technically possible but harder to pull off in multiples than Highways. For Masochists.
-Princess: Again strictly possible but the difficulties are numerous with this, even just in getting one. For extreme masochists.

Trashing Attack:

Now we just need to get your opponentís Provinces into the Trash. We have a few options here.
-Saboteur: This is easily the best option. In the absence of $7 kingdom cards a $4 price reduction makes your Saboteurs into Province-selective missiles. $5 reduction means that only pesky Peddlers will get in the way. The only downside is that your opponent can get a Duchy in recompense.
For all of the remaining attack to be at all reliable as Province hunters they will need to be either spammed, or have Deck Inspection assistance (see later)
-Rogue: A good option because it doubles as a Trash Retrieval card.
-Knight: A fine option. Remember that the danger of your opponentís Knights neutralising your Knights can be removed with enough Price Reduction.
-Swindler:  A more difficult option. If you Swindle your opponentís Provinces they receive another copy. Your time building this super complex engine would have been better spent just buying that Province. The way to neutralise this is to play at least $8 of Price Reduction. This allows you to Swindle your opponents Provinces into Curses. However at this level of Price Reduction Provinces will be too cheap to retrieve from the Trash. You either need to Trash and Retrieve on alternating turns, or Retrieve a Province early in your Turn (when the price reduction is between $2 and $5, i.e. 2 to 5 highways in play) and then continue to reduce the price to -$8 before playing your Swindlers.

Deck Inspection Attack:

This is not a strict requirement (and completely unnecessary if you have a Saboteur) but will help you reliably hit your opponents Provinces, which you need to do to make this engine worthwhile.
-Spy: As a cantrip it is easy to play in multiples. Certainly wont hurt your deck.
-Oracle: Hits more cards, but as terminal it's harder to spam. It does draw card however so if you have the actions spare it would be a good idea.
-Scrying Pool: The extreme action drawing ability makes this rather helpful.

Village:

Straightforward and common requirement. Throne Room and Kings Court are technical substitutes if youíre one of the aforementioned masochists.

Further Thoughts:

I could have just said Highway/Sab/GR seems like a nice combo, as that is my far the most functional way to attempt this. But the more I thought about it the more I realised that there were multiple ways to pull of this attack. That is the beauty of Dominion I suppose, so much potential and flexibility.

This will take a long time to setup of course, but thatís okay because want your opponents to already have Provinces when you finally set it up, so you have time. And each successful Sabotuered and Grave Robbed Province is a 9 point swing in your favour. 12 points if you can pull it off with one of the other trashing attacks.

If they have more of the Highways/other good cards than youíd like you can of course steal or just trash those to slow them down.

Squire seems like an ideal support card for this setup as it is a Village that GR can turn into a Saboteur and a Highway.

This works with Colonies of course too. You need at least $5 of price reduction to get them out of the Trash.  Also this combo may be more of a worthwhile pursuit in longer higher scoring Colony games; nabbing a Colony is a 14 point swing to you.

I suppose I should mention that I havenít even tried to pull this off yet. It hasnít come up on any board Iíve played yet. Iím tempted to spike the required cards into a game with my housemates tonight. But i donít want to be that guy :P

Let me know if you guys succeed or even attempt this on any board where it seems possible!

TLDR: Highway/Saboteur/Grave Robber can steal Provinces from your opponent!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 12:00:34 am »
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Rogue is not a great card to rely on as the trashing attack.  It's easy enough to stop simply by filling the trash with other cards.  Also making it difficult is the fact that the trashing attack would need price reduction to work as well.  Of course, if you have reliable reduction to do the trash gaining, then maybe it's not a huge obstacle. 

Probably the bigger obstacle is that your opponent chooses a card to do the trashing, so he can often choose to trash the other card.  Same goes for Knight.  This can also be mitigated by price reduction, except it also means that, if you don't find a Province, you may miss out on trashing their power $5.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 12:09:34 am »
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Rogue is not a great card to rely on as the trashing attack.  It's easy enough to stop simply by filling the trash with other cards.  Also making it difficult is the fact that the trashing attack would need price reduction to work as well.  Of course, if you have reliable reduction to do the trash gaining, then maybe it's not a huge obstacle. 

Probably the bigger obstacle is that your opponent chooses a card to do the trashing, so he can often choose to trash the other card.  Same goes for Knight.  This can also be mitigated by price reduction, except it also means that, if you don't find a Province, you may miss out on trashing their power $5.

You need the price reduction for it to work at all. But with 4xHighways + Rogue if they turn over a Province they have to trash it. The only thing is either spamming it enough to hit a Province, or Spying enough to make sure one is there.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 12:15:45 am »
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Rogue is not a great card to rely on as the trashing attack.  It's easy enough to stop simply by filling the trash with other cards.  Also making it difficult is the fact that the trashing attack would need price reduction to work as well.  Of course, if you have reliable reduction to do the trash gaining, then maybe it's not a huge obstacle. 

Probably the bigger obstacle is that your opponent chooses a card to do the trashing, so he can often choose to trash the other card.  Same goes for Knight.  This can also be mitigated by price reduction, except it also means that, if you don't find a Province, you may miss out on trashing their power $5.

You need the price reduction for it to work at all. But with 4xHighways + Rogue if they turn over a Province they have to trash it. The only thing is either spamming it enough to hit a Province, or Spying enough to make sure one is there.

Yeah.  I think it's just a lot of support to make it work.  The need for reduction to gain is inevitable, but needing it for the trash too just makes it that much more difficult to reliably fire.  I expect this kind of strategy will sometimes be relevant, but not often.  Using Saboteur to destroy the opponent's VP cards comes up sometimes, but not often.  Would Graverobber/Rogue make that strategy more or less viable?  It gives higher payout but it also takes more setup (since with a Sab strategy you don't even need price reduction -- KC for relentless spamming is effective too).
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werothegreat

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 12:34:59 am »
+1

I love King's Courting Saboteurs already, so this just makes it thrice as nice.
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clb

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 12:58:15 am »
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--Province Theft--

Stealing Provinces directly from another playerís deck is the ultimate insult in Dominion (in the absence of Colonies obviously). Dark Ages has finally given us a way to pull this off (aside from Masquerade shenanigans of course).

TLDR: Highway/Saboteur/Grave Robber can steal Provinces from your opponent!

Just to be pedantic (since this community seems to love to do that), Possession + Masquerade (or Ambassador) does this, too.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 01:07:22 am »
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--Province Theft--

Stealing Provinces directly from another playerís deck is the ultimate insult in Dominion (in the absence of Colonies obviously). Dark Ages has finally given us a way to pull this off (aside from Masquerade shenanigans of course).TLDR: Highway/Saboteur/Grave Robber can steal Provinces from your opponent!

Just to be pedantic (since this community seems to love to do that), Possession + Masquerade (or Ambassador) does this, too.
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Gherald

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 01:32:22 am »
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Yeah, but I guess he's right to mention Possession + Ambassador
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Loschmidt

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 02:24:52 am »
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Yeah, but I guess he's right to mention Possession + Ambassador

I'll conceed that point. Try as I might I can never quite cover all of the edge cases to the satisfaction of the DSF crowd :D Not that I'm complaining :P
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DG

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 06:00:47 am »
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The simplest way to take an opponent's province is to be passed one on a masquerade. It doesn't even have to be your turn. This did actually happen in the first game I ever played with masquerade when someone didn't look at their cards very closely.
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Fabian

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Re: Province Theft
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 09:50:02 am »
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I've passed Provinces willingly with Masquerade a few times. Most of the time it worked out well.

Possession/Ambassador is, I would say, a fairly common thing too.
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