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[Jetege]

Hi,

I stumbled upon this topic and I signed into this forum so I could post this comment. In this comment I want to provide the point of view from a casual dominion player.

Let me introduce myself quickly. I am a board game enthousiast. I play a lot of games a little and some games a lot, I also am a boardgame designer and I've set up a local gaming group in the Rotterdam area that caters to board gamers of all kinds of sorts. As such I have a lot of experience with the various motivations people have to play and enjoy board games.

Dominion is one of my favorite games and as such I play it regularly. Sometimes in person and sometimes online. I even read a strategy post every once in a while to amuse myself. However, If I’ve played more than 150 games altogether it is a lot. It is safe to say I am not as fanatic as most of the posters on this forum.    

About the tournament. I think it is important to decide first what kind of tournament it should be. If you really want it to be a casual tournament, or if the competitive element is more important. Some specific goals could be:
-   Participants can play as much games as possible in a day
-   Participants play against people of similar skill most of the time
-   Large variety in setups (different sets, different player counts 2p/3p/4p)
-   Less experienced players get a great introduction in all the facets of the game
-   Getting the opportunity to meet other dominion players
-   Having a climax for the tournament (a finals round)
-   Participants can see the best players in action
-   Determining who is the best (most skillful) player of the day

These goals can be conflicting, so you must prioritize them. The order above represents my personal preference. As you can see I prefer a really more casual tournament. I would set it up in a way that is similar to what happens on the isotropic server, except that the games are played in real live.

That is:
-   Participants report at the organization desk and get a name tag and (login)
-   Organisation randomly pairs opponents that are available for playing (randomly choose 2p/3p/ 4p)
-   Whenever a game is finished, report the results
-   When you finished a game, report yourself as 'ready to play again' in the ‘waiting room’
-   ...or take a break if you require it 
-   Sets are determined randomly per game/table by the organization
-   This should be done in a practical way to avoid losing precious playing time (maybe prepare them on portable serving trays that can be put straight onto the playing table)
-   Rating is determined by ELO-style computer algorithm and is shown on a display to anyone
-   Pairings should be manipulated to favour setup with participants of similar rating
-   If you like a climatic finish, the tournament may end with a finals round for the best x players.

What do you think of this?

[Indur]

Time in a round
With regards to the time limitation, I would like to add the following:

In 2p games, I think we could set the time limit at 30 minutes, with a warning after this time has elapsed, and 5 additional minutes (or so) where players can race to the most points. Most points after 35 minutes wins.

This is a bit different from the way of playing until 3 piles or provinces/colonies run out, but it does not really reduce the skill level needed (increases it, I would guess). I think it is not unreasonable to use such a rule in organized play.

pro: all matches are over after 35 minutes, enabling way more games in a day.
con: new element to the game that is new and unknown, and changes endgames in certain situations.



Rounds in a day
Just as a comparison: Magic tournaments always start at 11:00 and last a certain number of Swiss rounds, followed by 'top-8', consisting of three rounds of knock-out (quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals). The number of Swiss rounds is determined by the number of players, and is chosen to ensure that everyone with one loss or better in the Swiss part of the tournament is in the top-8:

# players   # rounds
8              3 rounds
9-16          4 rounds
17-32        5 rounds
33-64        6 rounds
etc.

6 rounds + top-8 means 9 rounds of play. This can be done in a day, albeit a long one. Still, I would prefer a tournament running from 11:00 till 20:00 with a clear victor over a shorter tournament with either no knock-out phase or a separate finals-day.

On randomness in determining the best player
There is quite some chance in a game of Dominion. Much more than in (for instance) Magic. And even there, rounds are always best-of-three (enabled by the fact that a typical Magic game is shorter than a typical Dominion game). This means that for a match between two players to reliably turn out the better player as the winner a large number of games should be played.

However, I feel that for a Real Life tournament, issues of organisation weigh heavier than trying to achieve this goal. I say: let online Dominion be used to determine the best player overall, and let real life Dominion have its share of luck.

Yes, this can result in the winner not being the best player, but at the outset the best player will still have the largest chance of winning.

I'm interested in your thoughts.

p.s. I guess the results of this discussion will probably be useful for players in other countries, but I doubt they will continue reading this page. Shall we continue in Dutch?

[Davio]

I kinda liked talking English with all Dutch speakers.

Thought it was a bit funny at least. 

[Dubdubdubdub]

I say: let online Dominion be used to determine the best player overall, and let real life Dominion have its share of luck.

Yes. I think we should keep this in mind.

About talking Dutch/English: I got some PM's from another board member who might be willing to help us out if necessary even though he's in the US; I reckon there really is some interest among other members.

I would be willing to try out the 30-35min rule. Anybody against? Maybe 35 extended to 45?

And Jetege, thanks for your thoughts - you make some really good points. I would like to focus on these three of your goals:
-   Participants can play as much games as possible in a day
-   Participants play against people of similar skill most of the time
-   Getting the opportunity to meet other dominion players

[-Stef-]

If you really want it to be a casual tournament, or if the competitive element is more important.

Dit lijkt me de belangrijkste vraag.
Als het een gezelligheidstoernooi wordt, dan lijkt me 3P potjes zonder rondes maar met 'ik ben beschikbaar om te spelen' een prima oplossing.
Ik hou ook wel van een competatief toernooi, alleen zie ik niet hoe je het rond krijgt op 1 dag.

6 rounds + top-8 means 9 rounds of play. This can be done in a day, albeit a long one. Still, I would prefer a tournament running from 11:00 till 20:00 with a clear victor over a shorter tournament with either no knock-out phase or a separate finals-day.

Ik heb nooit aan grote magic toernooien meegedaan, maar dat is 9 keer "best of 3" toch?
En is de top8 niet zelfs best of 5?
9 * best of 3 lijkt me prima maar onhaalbaar op 1 dag.

Time in a round
With regards to the time limitation, I would like to add the following:

In 2p games, I think we could set the time limit at 30 minutes, with a warning after this time has elapsed, and 5 additional minutes (or so) where players can race to the most points. Most points after 35 minutes wins.

This is a bit different from the way of playing until 3 piles or provinces/colonies run out, but it does not really reduce the skill level needed (increases it, I would guess). I think it is not unreasonable to use such a rule in organized play.

pro: all matches are over after 35 minutes, enabling way more games in a day.
con: new element to the game that is new and unknown, and changes endgames in certain situations.

In een competatief toernooi lijkt me dit geen goed plan. Probeer het een keer thuis uit in een potje dat je heel graag wil winnen...
Nog 4 minuten te gaan, het is jouw beurt en je hebt een vrij ingewikkeld deck (anders had het nooit tot 30 min gekomen).
Hoe erg ga je je best ervoor doen dat je tegenstander nog een keer aan de beurt komt? Heb je daar matig spel voor over?
Of: je tegenstander heeft een militia-throne room-masq pin, en je bent langzaam aan je hele deck aan het inleveren. Maar ja, toch maar door spelen, want wie weet heb je net een estate over als de 35 minuten op zijn.
Ik wil helemaal niet met dergelijke dilemma's bezig zijn.

In een gezelligheidstoernooi kan het natuurlijk wel, wat me een steeds beter plan lijkt worden.

p.s. I guess the results of this discussion will probably be useful for players in other countries, but I doubt they will continue reading this page. Shall we continue in Dutch?

Dat lijkt me hoogst onvriendelijk op een internationaal forum. Wie doet zoiets nu weer?

[Jack Rudd]

Does a Swiss system use cuts? I mean, people who have lost the first matches may not be inclined to try their best anymore or just drop out and this would skew the results.

Swiss systems don't use cuts, but people do sometimes withdraw from them. This doesn't really matter; one of the best features of Swiss pairing is that it's robust against withdrawals.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Hey,

Het lijkt me echt gaaf als we dit van de grond krijgen. Morgen ga ik op vakantie, voor ruim 2 weken - als ik terug kom kan ik beginnen hier werk van te maken.

Zoals gezegd lijken dit mij de belangrijkste doelen (naast een gezellige dag):
1   Zoveel mogelijk potjes spelen
2   Tegen mensen wiens niveau zo dicht mogelijk bij dat van jou ligt
3   Andere dominionspelers leren kennen.

3p met 'ik ben beschikbaar om te spelen' werkt niet voor het tweede doel.

Ik wil vooral graag dat dit georganiseerd wordt. Ik vind het leuk om in wedstrijdverband te spelen en mensen te ontmoeten die dit spel goed kunnen. Hoe het precies gaat lopen maakt me niet zo veel uit - we moeten na deze discussie gewoon een keuze maken en die zal voor- en nadelen hebben.
Ik hoef het overigens niet eens per sé zelf te organiseren. Dat ben ik wel van plan, maar wees niet bang om de show te stelen als je denkt dat het helpt.

[Dubdubdubdub]

Hm. Ik wil dit nog steeds heel graag doen, maar ik heb mezelf een beetje vergaloppeerd. Ik kan hier op het moment geen prio aan geven.
Dus - sorry voor evt. valse hoop. Ik wil graag het idee in stand houden en deze discussie is daar zeker waardevol voor. Maar later.

[Davio]

Hm. Ik wil dit nog steeds heel graag doen, maar ik heb mezelf een beetje vergaloppeerd. Ik kan hier op het moment geen prio aan geven.
Dus - sorry voor evt. valse hoop. Ik wil graag het idee in stand houden en deze discussie is daar zeker waardevol voor. Maar later.

Tja, mocht het georganiseerd worden, zou ik graag komen, maar ik heb op het moment ook niet echt veel tijd.