Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare  (Read 11093 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

J-Kidder

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« on: September 01, 2012, 02:39:16 pm »
0

Sorry to overload the forums with rules questions for things that are probably obvious to most but here is another one I could use help with:

I trash my overgrown estate with a MS in my hand. What order do I resolve the events in if I want to discard my MS?
 
What happened IRL (potentially wrongly) was that I chose to resolve the OE first and drew a card.  The thing is that the card I drew was another MS.  Can I now discard them both and gain two gold or have I missunderstood the order to resolve effects in?
Logged

ednever

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 650
  • Respect: +722
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 02:55:09 pm »
0

In general:

1- take action
2- choose to reveal something
3- resolve reveal stuff
4- resolve original action

Another example is:
1- I play minion
2- you reveal horse traders
3- you place ht aside
4- I choose whether to take +$2 or discard and draw 4

Key is you resolve ht before I decide which decision I will make with minion.

I think the same applies in your situation. Do you did it wrong irl.

Ed
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 03:02:33 pm »
0

But MS reacts to trashing whereas HT reacts to attack being played. I would think OE resolves first.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 04:04:40 pm »
0

But MS reacts to trashing whereas HT reacts to attack being played. I would think OE resolves first.

OE isn't a reaction, it's a when-trashed ability; reactions happen before everything else resolves.  Therefore the order must be either:

Trash OE
Reaction: Reveal and discard Market Square (already in hand)
Reaction: Gain Gold
OE ability: Draw a card

or

Trash OE
OE Ability: Draw card (that happens to be Market Square)
Be sad that you can't reveal the card you just drew.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 04:09:22 pm »
0

But doesn't MS' "when one of your cards is trashed" wording imply that the card has been trashed already? Hm. I don't think there is precedent for when on-trash effects are resolved.
Logged

J-Kidder

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 04:47:17 pm »
+3

My thought was this:

1.  Both effects (drawing a card, and discarding the MS for gold) are both triggered by precisely the same exact event, the trashing of the OE.
2. This would lead me to believe that because these two effects are triggered by the exact same event that I can choose to resolve them in any order.
3. Thus I could choose to draw first then reveal and discard both my MSs.
Logged

Dulkal

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2012, 04:57:47 pm »
0

That would be my thought too. 'When you trash this' and 'when one of your cards is trashed' sound like simultanous triggers.

The minion example is different, because the minion being played an the minion resolving are not simultanous.
Logged

clb

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2012, 05:05:40 pm »
0

I think you might get to resolve the order of the on-trash effects, but I would argue that the second MS wasn't in your hand for the trashing and hence isn't discardable. You would need to reveal the first MS at the time of trashing of course, which would maintain accountability. The drawn card was not revealed at trashing and does not activate.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 05:12:05 pm »
+3

I think you might get to resolve the order of the on-trash effects, but I would argue that the second MS wasn't in your hand for the trashing and hence isn't discardable. You would need to reveal the first MS at the time of trashing of course, which would maintain accountability. The drawn card was not revealed at trashing and does not activate.

No, if you can draw first, you can reveal what you drew. Precedence is interaction between Secret Chamber and other reactions, e.g. Moat.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 05:19:51 pm »
+3

My thought was this:

1.  Both effects (drawing a card, and discarding the MS for gold) are both triggered by precisely the same exact event, the trashing of the OE.
2. This would lead me to believe that because these two effects are triggered by the exact same event that I can choose to resolve them in any order.
3. Thus I could choose to draw first then reveal and discard both my MSs.
This is correct.

Goko currently doesn't let you pick the order of Market Square vs. other when-trashed things, but I've reported that as a bug already.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2012, 05:21:42 pm »
0

Edit:  And apparently I've been ninjaed by the man himself.  I'll leave this here for posterity (because I think it would be correct given previous rulings, and because it took a long time to type out), but obviously it doesn't gainsay Donald's new ruling.

-----

My thought was this:
1.  Both effects (drawing a card, and discarding the MS for gold) are both triggered by precisely the same exact event, the trashing of the OE.

The two effects can be triggered at the same time.  However, in order for them to be triggered at the same time, they must actually be triggered at the same time--which means the MS has to be in hand at the time of trashing.  Consider two cases.

First, this is what happens if MS is in your hand:

You use Chapel to trash the OE.  Market Square is in hand, and you reveal and discard it.  Two events have been triggered: drawing a card, and gaining a Gold.  These effects both happen after the OE is trashed (though the trigger is initiated before.  You may resolve those effects in either order.  Therefore, if you also had a Watchtower in hand, you could resolve MS first, reveal WT in response, top-deck the Gold, then resolve the effect from OE, drawing the Gold.

This is what happens if MS is not in hand, but on top of your deck:

You use Chapel to trash OE.  One event is triggered:  draw a card.  This happens after the trashing is complete.  You draw the MS.  The OE has already been trashed, so you cannot reveal and discard the newly-drawn MS; it has no trashing to react to.

In other words, the specific order of events in Case 1:

Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Market Square, Gold
Play card: Chapel.
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE.
Trigger On-trash event: draw a card.
Reveal and discard MS.
Trigger On-trash event: gain Gold.
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Resolve all on-trash effects at the same time.
Choose one effect: Gain Gold.
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain event: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Gold.
Choose:  Top-deck Gold.
Second on-trash effect occurs: draw a card, which is the top-decked Gold.
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase.  Hand: Watchtower, Gold, Gold.
Buy: Gold
Trigger: Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger On-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck.
All triggers have been pulled
Gain Gold
Choose: Top-deck Gold
End of turn.

In case 2:

Hand: Chapel, Overgrown Estate, Watchtower, Silver, Gold.  Card on top of deck is MS.
Play card: Chapel
Trigger Chapel action: trash OE
Trigger On-trash effect: draw a card
All triggers have been pulled.
Trash OE.
Draw a card (MS).
All actions have been used.
Trigger: transition to Buy phase.
Begin buy phase.  Hand: Watchtower, Silver, Gold, Market Square
Buy: Silver
Trigger: Gain Silver
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: Choose to trash or top-deck
All triggers have been pulled.
Gain Silver
Choose: trash Watchtower
Reveal and discard Market Square
Trigger on-trash effect: gain Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Trash Silver
Gain Gold
Reveal Watchtower
Trigger on-gain effect: choose to trash or top-deck Gold
All triggers have been pulled
Choose: top-deck Gold.
End of turn.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 05:24:06 pm by Kirian »
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25672
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 05:31:01 pm »
+3

The two effects can be triggered at the same time.  However, in order for them to be triggered at the same time, they must actually be triggered at the same time--which means the MS has to be in hand at the time of trashing.  Consider two cases.
Instead, think of it as, it is time to resolve when-trashed effects for that Overgrown Estate. Resolve them one by one. If one is a reaction, reveal it when you want to resolve it. Since we won't know if it was in your hand from the start, that doesn't matter.

This all falls out of Secret Chamber drawing Moat.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 07:31:06 pm »
0

The way I'm thinking about it (and have phrased it in the FAQ on BBG) is like this:

Triggering a Reaction (e.g. by revealing it) means you immediately resolve it. If the event that grants you the option of triggering the Reaction, also triggers other abilities (including other Reactions), you don't trigger the Reaction before you actually want to resolve it.

Cool that this rule is now relevant for more than the Secret Chamber/Moat scenario. :)

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Complete_and_All-Encompassing_Dominion_FAQ

SirPeebles

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3249
  • Respect: +5459
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 11:34:51 am »
0

If you were allowed to draw a card before revealing a market square, but weren't allowed to reveal the freshly drawn market square, there would be an awkward accountability issue.  Who's to say that you didn't just draw that market square that you're revealing?
Logged
Well you *do* need a signature...

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 01:04:13 am »
0

If you were allowed to draw a card before revealing a market square, but weren't allowed to reveal the freshly drawn market square, there would be an awkward accountability issue.  Who's to say that you didn't just draw that market square that you're revealing?

Right, and as I understand it that's the reason the rule is the way it is.

However, that could be resolved by requiring that all reactions need to be triggered (revealed) before resolving any ability. Then you would have to reveal your Market Square first and then choose in which order to resolve Market Square's ability and Overgrown Estate's ability (and not being able to reveal any more Market Squares you might draw). Having this rule would also mean that you couldn't do the Secret-Chamber-draws-a-Moat trick. But of course, the preceding is not the correct rule! Rather, revealing a Reaction immediately resolves it, and you can do that before or after resolving other concurrent abilities. (Just restating it to not confuse things.)

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 01:27:32 pm »
0

However, that could be resolved by requiring that all reactions need to be triggered (revealed) before resolving any ability.

...Revealing the Reaction is part of its ability.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:52:03 pm by AJD »
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 07:46:44 pm »
0

..Revealing the Reaction is part of its ability.

Good point. I guess the way I suggested would need a special rule.

Schneau

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1174
  • Shuffle iT Username: Schneau
  • Respect: +1461
    • View Profile
    • Rainwave
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 07:16:45 am »
0

So, I ran into a very similar situation IRL last night that I would expect isn't all that uncommon when playing DA.

My hand was Count - Market Square (MS) - Overgrown Estate (OE) - Copper (C) - C - C.

I played Count, putting MS on top of my deck. I then trashed my hand, which means my hand is empty and I just trashed an OE. I activated the on-trash of OE to draw the MS I had purposely put on top of my deck. I then revealed the MS to gain a Gold.

My opponents both thought that this wasn't allowed, and since I couldn't find this thread fast enough I went along with them at the time. Their argument was that since my hand was obviously empty when I trashed the OE (since I trashed my hand), then I obviously didn't have a MS in hand when I trashed to reveal it. I thought, based on this thread and others, that I would be allowed to reveal MS since even though it wasn't in my hand when I trashed, when I drew it I was still resolving things being trashed. I can't imagine this situation (of drawing a MS with an on-trash drawing ability) is all that uncommon in DA, I sort of wish it were more explicit in the rules card details.

So, which is correct in this situation:
1. Can reveal just-drawn MS to get a Gold, even though it is obvious it wasn't in your hand when you trashed.
2. Cannot reveal just-drawn MS, since hand was empty when you trashed.
Logged

J-Kidder

  • Thief
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Respect: +14
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 07:20:39 am »
+2

This is correct:

Quote
1. Can reveal just-drawn MS to get a Gold, even though it is obvious it wasn't in your hand when you trashed.
Logged

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 08:52:33 pm »
+1

This is correct:

Quote
1. Can reveal just-drawn MS to get a Gold, even though it is obvious it wasn't in your hand when you trashed.
This, because it's consistent with the rule "Can reveal just-drawn MS to get a Gold, in cases where it isn't obvious whether it was in your hand when you trashed." rather than having to include some kind of "When you couldn't possibly have had the card in your hand to start with, you can't reveal it" clause that would require a Possession's worth of FAQ to discuss just when it *is* obvious.
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2816
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3347
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 10:11:23 pm »
+2

Just to check then, it would be perfectly legit to say, have an empty deck and exactly one MS in your deck (which is in your hand), and do the following:

Salvage OE
Trigger MS, discard it, gain a Gold
Trigger OE, shuffling, drawing a card, which happens to be your MS
Trigger MS, discarding it, gain a Gold
Get +$1 from Salvager, continue with turn.

I'm pretty sure it's legal, but also seems like the kind of thing my housemate will inevitably do with about 50% consistency...
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 12:48:22 am »
0

Yep, that's pretty much what would happen. Hard to say how often that would come up, though.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 01:37:22 am »
+1

Just to check then, it would be perfectly legit to say, have an empty deck and exactly one MS in your deck (which is in your hand), and do the following:

Salvage OE
Trigger MS, discard it, gain a Gold
Trigger OE, shuffling, drawing a card, which happens to be your MS
Trigger MS, discarding it, gain a Gold
Get +$1 from Salvager, continue with turn.

I'm pretty sure it's legal, but also seems like the kind of thing my housemate will inevitably do with about 50% consistency...

You should do it with Cultist and 3 MS. :D
Logged

Tables

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2816
  • Build more Bridges in the King's Court!
  • Respect: +3347
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 11:49:30 am »
0

My housemate will achieve it. He seems to have absurd luck, like, if I didn't not believe in certain people being lucky, seeing him play would probably make me believe. He's played Catan twice, bought four Development cards total and gotten three Monopolies. He opens 5/2 about 50% of the time. It's just, I know there's cognitive bias, but it's just crazy. MS and +card trashers are going to lead to him achieving some mad stuff.
Logged
...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Overgrown Estate & Market Sqare
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 02:04:49 pm »
0

My housemate will achieve it. He seems to have absurd luck, like, if I didn't not believe in certain people being lucky, seeing him play would probably make me believe. He's played Catan twice, bought four Development cards total and gotten three Monopolies. He opens 5/2 about 50% of the time. It's just, I know there's cognitive bias, but it's just crazy. MS and +card trashers are going to lead to him achieving some mad stuff.

Might be better if he just pulled all the VP dev cards.  Are there even three Monopolies in the deck? :P

Play with Cities and Knights!  Monopoly isn't as broken in the expansion. ;)
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 21 queries.