Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG  (Read 11317 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KC-KC-Scout-Scout-Scout

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« on: September 01, 2012, 10:52:58 am »
+1

When buying an embargoed IGG during a regular buy phase, who gets the first curse?

This situation happened to me yesterday on Androminion with only one curse left and it went to the non buying player. I was pretty sure it was an error from the program so I dug up the rules to confirm my thought.

The two cards in question:

Code: [Select]
Embargo
+$2
Trash this card. Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile.
When a player buys a card, he gains a Curse card per Embargo token on that pile.

Code: [Select]
IGG
Worth $1
When you play this, you may gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse.

From the rules:

Code: [Select]
When you buy a card, first you buy the card, then gain it.
When two things happens to a player at the same time, the player picks the order to do them.
When two things happens to different players, go in turn order, starting with player whose turn it is.

So this is what I assume is supposed to happen:

Player A buys an IGG.
It triggers the embargo clause. Player A gains a curse per token on IGG pile.
Player A gains the IGG. It triggers the IGG "on gain" clause. Every other player gain a curse in turn order.

Is that right?
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 11:12:07 am »
+5

You're right, the Embargo should trigger first. Submit that bug! They may still be able to fix it before it goes down.
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 02:43:16 pm »
+6

I am a big fan of your Forum name, by the way.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

KC-KC-Scout-Scout-Scout

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 03:48:52 pm »
+1

You're right, the Embargo should trigger first. Submit that bug! They may still be able to fix it before it goes down.

Done and fixed.

Thanks for reminding me to report this.

I am a big fan of your Forum name, by the way.

;D
Logged

Kuildeous

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3840
  • Respect: +2219
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 05:30:09 pm »
+1

I am a big fan of your Forum name, by the way.

Now I'm imagining a cheerleading squad chanting this.
Logged
A man has no signature

ConMan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1400
  • Respect: +1705
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 11:38:32 pm »
+16

I am a big fan of your Forum name, by the way.

Now I'm imagining a cheerleading squad chanting this.
Kings Court! Kings Court! Scout! Scout! Scout!
Let's draw all those green cards out!
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 07:57:14 pm »
+1

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 11:14:58 pm »
0

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. When multiple gain effects happen, the current player gets to choose the order they happen in. So he could choose to take the curse from embargo, or for the opponent to take it from IGG. You're thinking of when a card instructs multiple people to gain something at the same time, then the gains happen in turn order.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 11:35:48 pm »
+1

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. When multiple gain effects happen, the current player gets to choose the order they happen in. So he could choose to take the curse from embargo, or for the opponent to take it from IGG. You're thinking of when a card instructs multiple people to gain something at the same time, then the gains happen in turn order.

Naw, when things happen to different people at the same time, they always go in turn order, regardless of whether they're one card affecting multiple people or several different cards acting simultaneously.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 11:46:10 pm »
0

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. When multiple gain effects happen, the current player gets to choose the order they happen in. So he could choose to take the curse from embargo, or for the opponent to take it from IGG. You're thinking of when a card instructs multiple people to gain something at the same time, then the gains happen in turn order.

Naw, when things happen to different people at the same time, they always go in turn order, regardless of whether they're one card affecting multiple people or several different cards acting simultaneously.

Really? This seems inconsistent... There's 2 separate things happening, IGGs trigger and Embargo's trigger. Seems odd that the fact that both triggers happen to result in a curse being given would change the normal rule that the current player chooses the order of the triggers.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1422
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2113
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 12:28:44 am »
+1

I think it's that when stuff is happening at the same time to one player, it happens in the order which that player chooses, which slightly different than the current player choosing the order of triggers.
When stuff is happening at the same time to multiple players, it happens in turn order.

But of course, there is still one exception to this: Masquerade; the passing does actually happen "at once" rather than in turn order.
Logged
🚂 Give 18xx games a chance 🚂

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2012, 12:29:59 am »
0

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. When multiple gain effects happen, the current player gets to choose the order they happen in. So he could choose to take the curse from embargo, or for the opponent to take it from IGG. You're thinking of when a card instructs multiple people to gain something at the same time, then the gains happen in turn order.

Naw, when things happen to different people at the same time, they always go in turn order, regardless of whether they're one card affecting multiple people or several different cards acting simultaneously.

Really? This seems inconsistent... There's 2 separate things happening, IGGs trigger and Embargo's trigger. Seems odd that the fact that both triggers happen to result in a curse being given would change the normal rule that the current player chooses the order of the triggers.

The "normal rule" isn't that the current player chooses the order of the triggers, and the fact that both triggers happen to result in a curse being gained is irrelevant. When multiple events happen at the same time, they go in turn order, whether they're all the same type of event (everyone gains a curse!) or different events (I trash an Urchin, you reveal a Secret Chamber), if they're triggered by the same event.

So for instance—to pick a real example—if I buy an Embargoed Noble Brigand, first I gain a curse, and then you get thieved. I don't get to choose the order, because the abilities affect different people at the same time.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 05:37:55 am »
0

Yes, I and if I play Witch in a four player game, with one Curse left, I don't get to choose what player gets the Curse. It's the player to my left. This is from the rule book of the base game.

"If there aren't enough Curses left to go around when you play the Witch, you deal them out in turn order – starting with the player after you."

So that's probably the earliest statement of that rule.

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 06:57:52 am »
0

So okay, if Embargo was "on gain" the IGG-Embargo cursing would happen in turn order. But where does that start exactly? Are you the first in line or your left hand neighbor?
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1177
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 08:25:48 am »
0

I guess it is like this:

When multiple effects activate at same time:

First, resolve all concerning the current player, current player chooses the order of resolving of all abilities affecting him.
Then, resolve all concerning the next player, current player (?) chooses the order of all resolving abilities.
and so on.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2012, 09:42:04 am »
0

Even if Embargo's Curse were when-gain, the buying player would get the Curse. All the gain effects (from Embargo and IGG) would be at the same time, which means they're resolved in turn order starting with the current player.

Pretty sure that's incorrect. When multiple gain effects happen, the current player gets to choose the order they happen in. So he could choose to take the curse from embargo, or for the opponent to take it from IGG. You're thinking of when a card instructs multiple people to gain something at the same time, then the gains happen in turn order.

Naw, when things happen to different people at the same time, they always go in turn order, regardless of whether they're one card affecting multiple people or several different cards acting simultaneously.

Really? This seems inconsistent... There's 2 separate things happening, IGGs trigger and Embargo's trigger. Seems odd that the fact that both triggers happen to result in a curse being given would change the normal rule that the current player chooses the order of the triggers.

The "normal rule" isn't that the current player chooses the order of the triggers, and the fact that both triggers happen to result in a curse being gained is irrelevant. When multiple events happen at the same time, they go in turn order, whether they're all the same type of event (everyone gains a curse!) or different events (I trash an Urchin, you reveal a Secret Chamber), if they're triggered by the same event.

So for instance—to pick a real example—if I buy an Embargoed Noble Brigand, first I gain a curse, and then you get thieved. I don't get to choose the order, because the abilities affect different people at the same time.

Right, I see my error now.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 12:49:24 am »
+1

First, resolve all concerning the current player, current player chooses the order of resolving of all abilities affecting him.
Then, resolve all concerning the next player, current player (?) chooses the order of all resolving abilities.
and so on.

No, each player chooses the order of the abilities happening to himself. Of course Donald has stated this in forums, but going by officially published rules it's not stated explicitly until Hinterlands.

First of all, I wasn't entirely accurate that the explanation about Witch that I quoted was the earliest statement that concurrent abilities happen in turn order. This is from the base game rules:

"If an ability of a card affects multiple players, and the order matters, resolve that ability for each affected player in turn order, starting with the player whose turn it is."

So that answers the hypothetical "when-gain Embargo" and IGG case. The next thing, several concurrent abilities for one player. This is given in the Seaside rules:

"If multiple cards resolve at the same time on your turn [...], you choose what order to resolve them. A card that affects multiple players during your turn still resolves in player order, affecting you first if it affects all players and then proceeding clockwise."

But this doesn't address several concurrent abilities for a player who isn't the current player. Who chooses then? The Hinterlands rules make it explicit that the rule from Seaside applies even when it's not your turn:

"When two things happen to a player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them."

The only examples I can think of when this happens to a not-current player, is Reaction cards. You can choose which order to resolve your Reaction cards when another player plays an Attack for instance. Can anyone think of other examples?

Dulkal

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2012, 04:46:46 am »
0

But do the embargo token and the buy effect of pseudo-IGG count as 'one ability' or 'multiple cards resolving at the same time on your turn'?
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 05:34:18 am »
0

"When two things happen to a player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them."

The only examples I can think of when this happens to a not-current player, is Reaction cards. You can choose which order to resolve your Reaction cards when another player plays an Attack for instance. Can anyone think of other examples?
You can choose in what order to receive your Curse and your Copper when you get Mountebanked. This probably doesn't matter unless you're Watchtowering them to the top of your deck.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Dulkal

  • Ambassador
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 06:41:22 am »
+2

You can choose in what order to receive your Curse and your Copper when you get Mountebanked. This probably doesn't matter unless you're Watchtowering them to the top of your deck.
And now you've got me trying to come up with a situation where a player would want to top-deck both the curse and the copper, and would care about the order...
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 09:30:01 am »
0

You can choose in what order to receive your Curse and your Copper when you get Mountebanked.

Are you sure about this? I thought "gain a Curse and a Copper" was to be interpreted as 'gain a Curse and then a Copper'.
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 09:33:09 am »
+2

You can choose in what order to receive your Curse and your Copper when you get Mountebanked. This probably doesn't matter unless you're Watchtowering them to the top of your deck.
And now you've got me trying to come up with a situation where a player would want to top-deck both the curse and the copper, and would care about the order...

Hmm.... through diligent card-counting, you know that the four cards remaining in your deck add up to $7; you have an Ambassador and a Great Hall in hand.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2515
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +1635
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 09:31:48 am »
0

But do the embargo token and the buy effect of pseudo-IGG count as 'one ability' or 'multiple cards resolving at the same time on your turn'?

Yeah, actually I see that the first quote doesn't completely answer this hypothetical case, and neither does the second quote. Embargo and IGG are obviously multiple cards resolving at the same time on your turn, and IGG is a card that affects multiple players. So actually the second quote (from Seaside) seems to contradict what we've been saying. It's correct though if the third quote (from Hinterlands) supersedes the second one. Here's more from that passage:

"When two things happen to a player at the same time, that player picks the order to do them. [...] When two things happen to different players at the same time, they happen in turn order, starting with the player whose turn it is."

This is more general, and it's chronologically the latest ruling. According to this pseudo-Embargo's on-gain Curse would go to you no matter what. This rule is also consistent with posts from Donald like this: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/5224530#5224530. It's unfortunate that the rule from Seaside makes this unclear though.

Are you sure about this? I thought "gain a Curse and a Copper" was to be interpreted as 'gain a Curse and then a Copper'.

You're right. See here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6893644#6893644
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 07:36:10 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9701
  • Respect: +10741
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2012, 06:25:15 pm »
+1

You can choose in what order to receive your Curse and your Copper when you get Mountebanked. This probably doesn't matter unless you're Watchtowering them to the top of your deck.
And now you've got me trying to come up with a situation where a player would want to top-deck both the curse and the copper, and would care about the order...

Upgrade, Harvest, Watchtower, and Horn of Plenty in hand. You don't trash the incoming Curse because you want to play Upgrade to get it into play for HoP but have nothing else to trash. You keep the Copper because you've trashed the rest of your Copper, so by putting it on your deck (below the Curse), you help the Harvest get more money.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Dominionaer

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 178
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: Need confirmation about Embargo + IGG
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2012, 01:33:03 am »
0

Upgrade, Harvest, Watchtower, and Horn of Plenty in hand. You don't trash the incoming Curse because you want to play Upgrade to get it into play for HoP but have nothing else to trash. You keep the Copper because you've trashed the rest of your Copper, so by putting it on your deck (below the Curse), you help the Harvest get more money.

How do you get the Copper below the Curse?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.063 seconds with 22 queries.