Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: How many cards in a strategy?  (Read 2288 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

philosophyguy

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
How many cards in a strategy?
« on: August 08, 2011, 02:11:01 pm »
0

At a experienced-novice level, most people can identify one or two dominant cards in a setup and build a deck around those cards + BM. Obviously at higher levels players are able to see how more cards in the setup can contribute to a strategy. My question is: for expert-level players, how many cards in a typical game are filler that you ignore, and how many actually have an influence on your strategic thinking beyond saying "that's not going to be relevant this game"?

For context, I'm asking because I've lost a number of games recently to massive combos involving half or more of the Kingdom cards, and I'm not sure if the sets were unusual or if expert-level players are regularly building combos that are that intricate. A recent example is this game.

A follow-up question: as the strategies get built around more cards, what do you do to reduce your dependence on shuffle luck for these combos to hit?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 02:17:45 pm »
0

In short, 3-8 cards 95% of the time.
But I'm probably one of the highest Big Money-esque players around, so I'm not the guy to ask.

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +938
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 02:30:17 pm »
0

I'm definitely not the best person to answer this complicated question, but I thought I'd add that there are a great number of cards that are not integral to a combo or strategy but integrate well with it.  If you see a huge engine with lots of different active cards, it's possible that some of those cards are supplemental and the engine as a whole would have worked without them.  So that's something to keep in mind.

A simplistic but common example is a Minion engine.  You pretty much only need Minion for a Minion engine, though it's good to pave the way for it with some trashing and +Buy.  So say you have all those things.  Alone, they're enough for a crushing victory.  But now imagine all the cards you can supplement to sweeten the engine:  Conspirator, Market, Laboratory, etc.  If you're not familiar with the basic Minion engine, you might get beaten by a synergy of Minion/Chapel/Worker's Village/Conspirator/Market/Laboratory/etc/etc/etc and wonder how the winner managed to coordinate so many diverse random cards together -- without ever realizing that the actual engine driving it all was just plain old Minion.

So I guess the thing to do to try to understand these complicated engines better is to see if they break down into simpler pieces.

With many exceptions, you'll probably find that the same cards tend to break down the same way regardless of what kinds of engines they're in.  Market, for example, is almost always a sweetening card.  It's rarely an engine card and rarer still a situational card.  That's another simplistic example, but it illustrates the concept.

Hopefully this post is at least in the neighborhood of what you're looking for.  I'm sure others will give you a more on-point answer.

(By the way, what beat you in that game was King's Court.  King's Court and almost ANY density of action cards can beat a victory out of almost anything.  To approximate the value of a King's Court, look at the most powerful action card you own and then figure the King's Court is double its power.  When you have a Witch, the King's Court card on its own becomes "+4 Cards.  Each other player gains two Curses."  Which is obviously a monster of a card AND you get it play your actual Witch, too!  Match multiple King's Courts up together, and the benefits grow exponentially.)
Logged

rod-

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 03:25:26 pm »
0

To approximate the value of a King's Court, look at the most powerful action card you own and then figure the King's Court is double its power. 
Technically, the approximate value of a king's court is equal to two times the *average* action card you own, not 2*the best.  If you have 1 witch in a 40 card deck, your KC is only going to be worth 2 witches once in a blue moon.  If you have 4 wharves in a 20 card deck, your KC is probably going to be worth double wharf more or less every other turn (once you manage to draw the two together the first time...)

A more precise answer is of course 2*the best action present in any random 4card hand.  Still, most of the time, that's going to be closer to the average action than the best action.  Card draw prior to KC use of course messes this up...all in all its probably a poor idea trying to quantify how good KC is because it's so variable.  It can be a blank, it can be +9cards...
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4386
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 03:42:09 pm »
0

Certainly King's Court is not nearly so powerful as rinkworks' post makes it out to be. You need to be able to consistently draw it with those actions, plus you have to take into account the opportunity cost of not grabbing whatever else with your $7+ that you used to grab it. So is it extremely powerful? Absolutely. But it's not SO powerful...
Of course this is coming from a guy with a -2.97 effect with and a 3.03 effect without.

ARTjoMS

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 04:46:24 pm »
0

---
A follow-up question: as the strategies get built around more cards, what do you do to reduce your dependence on shuffle luck for these combos to hit?

Your questions are very general, each game and situation should be examined separately.

Luck is part of this game and being able to assess risk is one of the best qualities a player can have.
Logged
Quote
When a friend of mine sees a girl he finds attractive, he remarks how he'd like to "Throne Room" or "King's Court" her.
- Axe Knight

''Especially regarding such an iconic (and somewhat infamous) name that is known as ARTjoMS.'' - shark_bait is boosting my ego.

Mean Mr Mustard

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
  • First to 5000 Isotropic wins
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 05:35:52 pm »
0

I rarely play bmu; if I did I imagine my win rate would be better, but honestly the reason I play this game is because of the infinite combos to explore.  That being said, there are elements represented by functionally similar but different cards.  When sizing up a KC deck, for example, I do not look for a specific draw card; most of them will work with  varying success.  I require a good linchpin and like to see some trashing or cycling.  All of these elements were present in this kingdom.

To break down this specific game we played I would point out that when you coupled your treasure maps on turn five I though the game was effectively over. I chose not to change gears, sticking to a plan that had an element of risk to begin with and had indeed become dire once you exploded your economy so early.  I will walk you through the thought process behind this deck:

I wanted to KC/KC Pirate Ship you.  My early setup involved creating an Apothecary/Warehouse combo with a Steward for light trashing.  I chose the Steward mainly for the draw ability, but all three of his abilities got used in this game.  I was uninterested in trashing coppers, so once he ate two estates his role became $/cards. 

As for the Apothecary/Warehouse, I personally like this interaction but it is not game breaking.  Basically, it cycles the deck fairly well while creating the opportunity to  proactively set up good combos.  This combo sometimes falls flat on its face and can often be too slow in tempo, but in this case it worked out okay.  I was banking on the hope that when this deck finally did fire I would be able to effectively cripple your economy.

I bought an Herbalist at an opportune time because I knew I would need the +buy.  Herbalist is not one of my go-to buy sources but had there not been any source of buy I would never have attempted this deck.

Library, believe it or not, is actually a great draw card for KC/KC, especially in conjunction with Apothecary.  With light green in my deck and some of the coppers out of the way, I was able to pick and choose which actions to keep.

The final element was the linchpin of this deck, the Pirate Ship.  It could have been Bridge, Possession, Saboteur, Mountebank or anything like that;  all that mattered was that the linchpin played three or six times at once could radically alter the landscape of the game.

As I wrote above, I fully expected to lose this game when you got that WH/TM off so early, but I stuck with my plan and got a win for it.  I do not think you played a bad game at all.  My deck had a higher risk to benefit ratio and with careful VP management barely pulled out a win.
Logged
Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: How many cards in a strategy?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 06:57:17 pm »
0

Quote
My question is: for expert-level players, how many cards in a typical game are filler that you ignore, and how many actually have an influence on your strategic thinking beyond saying "that's not going to be relevant this game"?

When you're playing really well you ignore none of the cards. Supply piles can be important when you need to exhaust 3 of them. Poor looking cards can get played into strength by your opponent (or yourself). Extra buys can bring in cheap cards late in the game for minimal benefit, but still better than nothing. If your deck clogs with green cards then you might need different cards to free it up.

I know you're really asking about situations such as when you'd always buy a silver instead of a woodcutter, perhaps when you'll be using wharves and banks, but you'll still improve your play by not dismissing the cards. Thinking through a rare situation where you can buy a cheap woodcutter on your penultimate turn, knowing that you'd perhaps rather king's court that woodcutter than one of your wharves for the big finish on the final turn, is more important.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 07:00:28 pm by DG »
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.176 seconds with 20 queries.