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[rspeer]

Well, in the time since I bought Dark Ages from my FLGS, I keep trying to find a realistic way to use Donald X's favorite card, Rats. It's so much fun to play! And so bad!

So here are some conversations between me and myself, designated "Johnny" and "Spike".

Johnny: Rats goes great with trash-for-benefit cards! Altar is a trash-for-benefit card! Let's get both!
Spike: Altar doesn't give a rat's ass whether it's trashing a Rats.

Spike: Okay, a 3/4 opening, no strong 4s, so we'll get Silver and... another Silver, right?
Johnny: No, a Rats.
Spike: You're insane.
Johnny: Gotta trash that Overgrown Estate somehow, right?

Johnny: ...and then if everything lines up, we can use Steward to trash two Rats and draw two whole cards!
Spike: Congratulations, that's worse than a Moat. And if you didn't want the Rats, you could have not gained them.

Johnny: OH MY GOD I CAN PROCESSION RATS
Spike: Maybe with that $5 gain you can gain a Laboratory. You know, something that nets you one card and doesn't fuck up the rest of your deck.
Johnny: Okay, yeah, and then I'll Procession the Lab into an Altar! That will fix everything!

[edited because I got the Spike name wrong at first]

[Brando Commando]

I had some similar conversations last night playing IRL Dark Ages. One guy did well by buying limited Rats and then Graverobbing them into something better. One guy got screwed buying a few and then not having any treasure to do anything useful with.

I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of) and when trashed it draws you a card; this all suggests that it's a great early trasher if you buy one and use if one or two times to create more, all of which you then feed to Upgrade/Remake/Salvager/Trader. This way, maybe there's some turbo-trashing early game (maybe even faster than Remake?).
Downside: You'd have to carefully balance things so you don't end up with a hand with only Rats and something you don't want to trash and which can't trash Rats, e.g., Rats-Rats-Silver-Silver-Silver; using them will only feed an explosion, so they become dead cards (unless you've got something else up your sleeve...).

So: potentially powerful early game, but potentially dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

[Davio]

This is my general feeling with DA.

DA just brings out the Rube Goldberg in me and in the end I lose to a big money bot.

[BubbleBoy]

I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of)

Um...

Upgrade

Yeah...also, Junk Dealer and Apprentice (sort of). By the way, Apprentice is pretty great to use on Rats.

[Brando Commando]

I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of)

Um...

Upgrade

<facepalm> My only saving grace..."that I can think of." Sorta.

[redwings1340]

Hmm, I haven't actually gotten the game yet, but maybe rats could work pretty well if there was another trash card in the game (trash for benefit could be awesome) and you got it a little later than you get most trash cards (only after you have the ability to trash them). The key to this card might lie in the idea that you can get an endless supply of 4 cost cards (which ordinarily you wouldn't have time to get) that help you when you trash them, and you can trash a few additional coppers while you're at it. It's just a thought though, I haven't had the chance to test it out myself.

[werothegreat]

In Cursing or Looting games (particularly those that feature both), Rats shine, but you really do need another trasher to take care of the Rats once they've gotten rid of your junk, such as, well Junk Dealer!  Junk Dealer does the same thing, but it's slower, so use that to trash your Rats and draw an extra card.

[agrajag]

I can confirm that it works pretty great with junk dealer. In fact one of the two recommended Dark Ages sets has both Junk Dealer and Rats (and Graverobber, which can also work well with it if you get only a few rats. Junk Dealer works better with larger numbers).

[Grujah]

I can confirm that it works pretty great with junk dealer. In fact one of the two recommended Dark Ages sets has both Junk Dealer and Rats (and Graverobber, which can also work well with it if you get only a few rats. Junk Dealer works better with larger numbers).

So, you think +1 Card is worth it?

[agrajag]

No I think Junk Dealer needs a lot of cards to trash for it to work, and Rats is a good source of that. +1 card isn't worth it by itself, but in combination with Rats ability to trash other crappy cards plus another trash for benefit card like Junk Dealer or Graverobber I think it works pretty well. Just my subjective opinion though, not like I've run simulator tests against big money or anything.

[Dulkal]

So, you think +1 Card is worth it?

Well, if you're going to trash your estates, turning them to rats first gives you extra cards twice. When you turn you estates to rats, you get to draw another card instead. When you trash your rats, you draw an extra card.

Basically, that means that buying the rats gives you a total of 6 extra cards in the early game (three if you count the hand-space the rat takes up against it), just for trashing your estates. Later on, when coppers are no longer good cards, you can swap them with your rats (which take up space in your hand, but no more than they did back when they were estates).

With shelters, it gets slightly better as your overgrown estate gives you another card, for a total of +7 cards for buying the rats, plus another card when you trash the original rat.

Whether that beats the other 4-cost card you could have opened is an open question, but it's not nothing.

(of course, this assumes that your final trasher was a five-coster you couldn't just have opened with in the first place, like junkyard)

[RD]

So, you think +1 Card is worth it?

Well, if you're going to trash your estates, turning them to rats first gives you extra cards twice. When you turn you estates to rats, you get to draw another card instead. When you trash your rats, you draw an extra card.

Basically, that means that buying the rats gives you a total of 6 extra cards in the early game (three if you count the hand-space the rat takes up against it), just for trashing your estates. Later on, when coppers are no longer good cards, you can swap them with your rats (which take up space in your hand, but no more than they did back when they were estates).

3 is the appropriate number to look at here, not 6. You could for instance buy one Caravan to get those three extra +Cards without worrying about hitting the Rats+trasher combo. You'll probably get them sooner and with a lot less hassle. Also the cards you draw will be higher quality because none of them will be Rats (which you might not even get to play, if your trasher is a terminal).

You also seem to be assuming you can immediately Rats the Estates and wait until later for the Copper; if it doesn't work out this way, then there is some damage to your buying power that has to be taken into account.

With shelters, it gets slightly better as your overgrown estate gives you another card, for a total of +7 cards for buying the rats, plus another card when you trash the original rat.

Overgrown Estate gives you a card whether you use Rats or not; it seems like a wash? I guess it gives you that card a little sooner, assuming (as in your post) that you didn't open with your real trasher because it costs $5.

[Dulkal]

3 is the appropriate number to look at here, not 6. You could for instance buy one Caravan to get those three extra +Cards without worrying about hitting the Rats+trasher combo. You'll probably get them sooner and with a lot less hassle. Also the cards you draw will be higher quality because none of them will be Rats (which you might not even get to play, if your trasher is a terminal).

There's certainly quite a few ifs. Rats are only a good card if the table is right, but it is not the only card with that quality. I think Junk Dealer might be such a table. Then again, it may not be fast enough. It is, however, a mistake to say the cards you draw will be better quality because they wont be rats. Apart from the single rat you bought, all the rats presumably replaced poorer cards (shelters, estates, unwanted coppers)

I think Rats might be worthwhile on tables where you will eventually trash your cards, but won't be doing so right away. It may also improve performance in a double-jack because it can make your coppers 'not treasures' with a small trash benefit. In other words, I think rats has a lot of tables where it can subtly improve your odds in ways that are not immidiately obvious.

Their most obvious benefit is trash-for-benefit though. If you can grab a Forge, two rats make a province. If you have an Upgrade, your deck will turn from junk to Rats to Upgrade to Gold in short order.

[ehunt]

I had an effective Rats/Ambassador opening last night. The gift that keeps on giving! There was scrying pool, though, so I didn't mind the rats as much, and it took a ton of time to build my economy up after all that trashing (but what's new in an ambassador game?)

[shMerker]

I think there are uses for Rats alongside Library. First, because the rats tend to reduce your hand-size in the same way Haven or Oasis might. But then after you've cleared out your starting cards it lets you just go right past the rats in search of better cards (note: you need to actually have better cards for this to work)

[Not a Cylon]

I had a pretty good time of Rats/Bishop on Goko the other day (only possible due to a bug). You get to either play the Rats to get another one, or cash it in for 3 VP now

Of course, the usual problem with Bishop applies here — you're giving your opponents a good opportunity to trash their Rats, and they get to replace the card to boot. Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two). I think I also got some manner of Village as well, which was nice because otherwise you can draw things dead with your Bishop!

(I don't think it was Fortress that was the Village available. I'd remember having fun with Bishop/Fortress :-) Possibly almost as much fun as I had with Procession/Fortress/Council Room/Forge …)

Still. Very fun card. Yes, it is very very situational, but then a whole bunch of DA cards are situational. (BoM, anyone?) Which I would argue is what's so much fun about the set :-)

[Razzishi]

Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two).

I'm pretty sure that you never want to buy more than one Rats.

Also, plural card names are bad for grammar.

[Jorbles]

If you can get marginal use out of them otherwise Rats are a pretty great counter to Knights (other deck trashing cards too probably, but I've only used it against Knights).

[Scissors61]

Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two).

I'm pretty sure that you never want to buy more than one Rats.

Also, plural card names are bad for grammar.

Yeah, but if it were singular, you would have issues too. Who wants to admit that his kingdom went down the crapper because of a single Rat?

[werothegreat]

Ratses.

[Ozle]

Ratses.

Ratii !

[clb]

Rats cards?

[Scissors61]

Ratses.

Ratii !

Ratipeople?

[Kirian]

Ratses.

Ratii !

Ratipeople?

Whatever, you know what I mean.

/probably not obscure to Scissors, possibly to others.

[Scissors61]

Ratses.

Ratii !

Ratipeople?

Whatever, you know what I mean.

/probably not obscure to Scissors, possibly to others.

I gotcha, bro.