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Author Topic: X-with-a-bonus!  (Read 9122 times)

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rinkworks

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X-with-a-bonus!
« on: August 29, 2012, 12:29:47 pm »
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This is another card categorization post.  Someone mentioned in the Dark Ages previews that Scavenger was an upgraded Chancellor, and that was odd, particularly since the $3 and $4 cost tiers aren't greatly different from each other.  But there are a number of card-with-a-bonus cards, including at those prices, and I thought it would be interesting to try to enumerate them all.

To qualify for the list, there must be some card Y that does all the good things some card X does, plus more, with no additional drawbacks.  That's not quite restrictive enough, because I don't feel like Market is a Pawn-with-a-bonus card or that Laboratory is a Wishing-Well-with-a-bonus card, so I'm going to use some reasonable judgment to prune the list down to what feels right.

Improved $3 Cards

Silver - Royal Seal ($5), Stash ($5), Harem ($6)
Chancellor - Scavenger ($4)
Woodcutter - Nomad Camp ($4), Bridge ($4), Festival ($5)
Workshop - Ironworks ($4), Armory* ($4)
Village - a long list of oft-discussed and well-understood cards I need not reiterate here

Improved $4 Cards

Smithy - Torturer ($5), Rabble ($5), Margrave** ($5), Catacombs ($5), Hunting Grounds ($6), Nobles ($6)
Remodel - Expand ($7)
Throne Room - King's Court ($7)
Militia - Goons ($6)
Young Witch - Witch ($5)
Peddler*** - Market ($5), Bazaar ($5), Treasury ($5), Highway ($5), Junk Dealer ($5), Grand Market ($6)

--

It's really interesting how few cards there are on this list, though there are a lot of pairs of cards that don't quite qualify here, like Secret Chamber/Vault, Lighthouse/Fishing Village, Market/Grand Market, and Spy/Scrying Pool.

In particular, note the utter lack of improved $2 cards.  I'm certain it is by design that the $2 cards tend to do unique things (Embargo, Moat, Beggar, Pearl Diver, Crossroads, and Haven, for example) so that they will be worth buying when you want those effects.

--

(*Most benefits have edge cases that turn them into drawbacks, but it's worth pointing out that Armory is not nearly as good for Gardens rushes as Workshop, even accounting for the price difference.)
(**Here again, Margrave's attack can be a penalty but is generally a benefit.)
(***Peddler doesn't cost $4, and in fact its price feature means that Peddler itself is a "Peddler-with-a-bonus."  I include it here only because "Peddler-with-a-bonus" is an understood and useful term, and $4 is generally accepted as its balanced price point.  But if you want to be a stickler here, call it "Oasis-with-a-bonus."  Then people will tell you that Oasis is like a Peddler that activates Tunnel, so it ought to be the other way around anyway.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 03:46:06 pm by rinkworks »
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tlloyd

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 12:37:18 pm »
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Why is Grand Market not an improved version of Market? That seems like a rather obvious example of what you're discussing. I suppose you are treating the copper restriction as a drawback, since it makes GM harder to gain than Market, but in that sense every one of the cards you mentioned has a drawback of being more expensive (KC/TR arguably has an even larger differential in this respect). When played, GM has no additional drawbacks in comparison to Market, so I would say put it on the list.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 12:39:26 pm by tlloyd »
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werothegreat

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 12:42:57 pm »
+1

You could argue that Forge is an improved Chapel.
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Insomniac

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 12:44:49 pm »
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He's only talking about the 3 and 4 cost tiers.
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rinkworks

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 12:52:21 pm »
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Why is Grand Market not an improved version of Market? That seems like a rather obvious example of what you're discussing. I suppose you are treating the copper restriction as a drawback, since it makes GM harder to gain than Market, but in that sense every one of the cards you mentioned has a drawback of being more expensive (KC/TR arguably has an even larger differential in this respect). When played, GM has no additional drawbacks in comparison to Market, so I would say put it on the list.

That's a good argument.  I'll add it.
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werothegreat

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 12:54:16 pm »
+1

He's only talking about the 3 and 4 cost tiers.

In particular, note the utter lack of improved $2 cards.
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mnavratil

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 01:52:27 pm »
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Perhaps not worth mentioning, but Bridge and Highway both have minor drawbacks when paired with any TfB. Especially Highway since it is non-terminal.
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Copernicus

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 02:02:16 pm »
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Silver -> Stash, Harem, Royal Seal

90% of the tim when I get those cards, it really does feel like I'm getting a Silver with a bonus.

Laboratory -> Alchemist
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Kuildeous

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 02:07:12 pm »
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Would it be fair to say that Mercenary is an improvement of a Militia? Granted, the cost to activate it can be extreme.

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mnavratil

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 02:08:46 pm »
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Would it be fair to say that Mercenary is an improvement of a Militia? Granted, the cost to activate it can be extreme.

This one I think is definitely not 'strictly better' due to the trashing restriction on Mercenary.
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Cuzz

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2012, 02:09:07 pm »
+1

Is Goons not both an improved Woodcutter and and improved Militia?
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werothegreat

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 02:21:41 pm »
+1

Is Goons not both an improved Woodcutter and and improved Militia?

It can be argued that at times forcing your opponent to discard is not a good thing (Tunnel, Horse Traders), therefore Goons is NOT an improved Woodcutter.
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michaeljb

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 02:22:26 pm »
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Is Goons not both an improved Woodcutter and and improved Militia?

And while we're at it, why not improved Monument?
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eHalcyon

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 02:26:09 pm »
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Is Goons not both an improved Woodcutter and and improved Militia?

It can be argued that at times forcing your opponent to discard is not a good thing (Tunnel, Horse Traders), therefore Goons is NOT an improved Woodcutter.

I agree with you, but I think the larger consensus was that we shouldn't be so pedantic and just count the discard as a penalty, because it usually is. :P
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eHalcyon

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 02:27:12 pm »
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Silver -> Stash, Harem, Royal Seal

90% of the tim when I get those cards, it really does feel like I'm getting a Silver with a bonus.

Laboratory -> Alchemist

You can usually count Venture in there as well.  Barring edge cases like drawing your deck or pulling up a Horn of Plenty, Venture is worth $2 and sometimes more.
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Young Nick

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 02:42:42 pm »
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Woodcutter -> Nomad Camp
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FishingVillage

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 03:01:30 pm »
+1

Smithy -> Catacombs?
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rinkworks

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 03:25:31 pm »
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Is Goons not both an improved Woodcutter and and improved Militia?

I thought of that, but this felt like the Pawn->Market case.  I don't really feel like I'm getting a better Woodcutter when I buy a Goons.  It's even a bit of a stretch to call it Militia-with-a-bonus, but these distinctions can be pretty subjective.
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rinkworks

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 03:46:33 pm »
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Woodcutter -> Nomad Camp

That was already there.
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dnkywin

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2012, 03:53:10 pm »
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What about Silver -> Gold :D
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Cuzz

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2012, 06:06:50 pm »
+1

What about Silver -> Gold :D

Gold doesn't boost your Feoda.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2012, 06:08:02 pm »
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Can I claim Worker's Village as an improved version of Hamlet?
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werothegreat

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2012, 06:39:49 pm »
+1

Can I claim Worker's Village as an improved version of Hamlet?

Sometimes you want to discard.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2012, 07:29:05 pm »
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Wishing Well < Lab
Cellar < Storeroom

EDIT: Don't know Dark Ages cards...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 08:10:50 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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shMerker

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Re: X-with-a-bonus!
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2012, 08:02:47 pm »
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Cellar doesn't map to Storeroom very cleanly since Cellar has +1 action and Storeroom has +1 buy. Storeroom > Secret Chamber makes sense though, since Storeroom can do everything a secret chamber does and it lets you sift first and it gives you +1 buy.
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