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Author Topic: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!  (Read 4392 times)

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GigaKnight

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Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« on: August 28, 2012, 07:26:57 pm »
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Happy to be the bearer of good news.  If you pre-ordered it, it should ship soon (or maybe already has)!
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werothegreat

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2012, 08:01:26 pm »
+1

Shipped out yesterday!  It's currently sitting in West Virginia.  Should be here by Thursday.
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Graham Nelson

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 07:23:34 pm »
+1

I think, as a long-term lurker, I may emerge at this point to be the first person to receive the physical Dark Ages in the post and play it? I haven't been a beta-tester, so this has been my first exposure to the set.

My impressions after one game, which may not be worth much, are:

(a) The theme is side-effects going off almost at random, which can feel like walking through a fireworks factory which has itself caught fire. This set was absolutely born to be played on Isotropic, with a really reliable engine resolving everything correctly, and a minimum of book-keeping. In my one game, I persistently had 7 or more Actions, frequently losing count since they arrived via Procession and thus were not tallyable using a binary tree of cards on the table; and I typically held an entire deck of 40 or so cards in my hand. It's not satisfying to be saying "well, I've lost count, but I've got lots of buys and actions now" so often.

(b) Procession on Fortress is so powerful that we just couldn't believe it, and read the rules and the booklet many times. These are cheap cards: 4 each. I bought them on early turns, and essentially won the game as a result, 8 Provinces to zero. The effect is this: Procession plays Fortress twice, giving you +2 Cards, +4 Actions; Procession then trashes Fortress, but Fortress goes back in your hand when trashed, so you don't lose it (and can play it again this very turn); and you gain a free cost-5 action card into the bargain. Make that card a Band of Misfits, which can pretend to be a Procession, and repeat. And repeat. Remember, you only need one Fortress in hand, and then any Processions or Bands of Misfits can be played over and over to repeat this in the same turn.

Very soon you can reliably have colossal quantities of everything. Procession is enormously stronger than (say) Golem, yet costs the same as Throne Room. We read the rules for Procession over and over trying to find a reading in which it came out weaker, but in fact, these rules mostly just emphasised its strength, giving a maximal interpretation to what happens if it combines with Duration cards.

If anyone thinks Procession plus Fortress is an unlikely combination, I point out that it's in the recommended first play selection.

(c) There are, all the same, many beautiful pieces of rule design and artwork here. The Ruins are a pleasing reminder of the base set cards as if they have decayed for centuries (ironically, since this is meant to be the Dark Ages and so to precede the base set chronologically, I suppose.) The novelty of the three Estate substitutes in the opening hands is ingenious and fun, since it means that the traditional two bits of information on the opening hand now opens up to many more possibilities. All the same, these delicately weak cards are overpowered by the unduly strong ones, or so it seems at this point. (Band of Misfits, which I mention above, can pretend to be any 4-point or cheaper Action card of your choice. And several cards give you rather more draws from the deck than you might expect for their price.)

So I'm afraid I have to report that our first game of Dark Ages was unsatisfying. After about turn five, we simply didn't have that good a time playing it, even though the Knights were fun, and simply discovering new cards after so long playing the old ones on Isotropic was quite a thrill. Can't really have an opinion after only one game, of course, but my initial reaction is that pure Dark Ages may be an overpowering brew, and that the thing to do may be to mix it half and half with some other set.

(I do like the artwork on the new base cards set, I must say.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 07:48:34 pm »
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@Graham Nelson

Welcome to the forums!

a) Whoa, what kind of slog was it that you managed to get to 40 cards despite an abundance of trashing?

b) I think you are reading Procession incorrectly.  Are you putting the newly gained card (that is, Band of Misfits in your example) into your hand?  Procession does not gain to hand.

Procession is really strong with Fortress and a decent $5 on the board, but it will be weaker than Throne Room in cases.  Procession-ing a Grand Market is sad, especially if King's Court isn't around.
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Grujah

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 07:56:19 pm »
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@Graham Nelson

Welcome to the forums!

a) Whoa, what kind of slog was it that you managed to get to 40 cards despite an abundance of trashing?

b) I think you are reading Procession incorrectly.  Are you putting the newly gained card (that is, Band of Misfits in your example) into your hand?  Procession does not gain to hand.

No, he is putting the Fortress in hand.

But it does seem strange, you would need lots of BoM and Processions to continuously do Fortress trick.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:57:33 pm by Grujah »
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werothegreat

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 08:14:56 pm »
+1

@Graham Nelson

Welcome to the forums!

a) Whoa, what kind of slog was it that you managed to get to 40 cards despite an abundance of trashing?

b) I think you are reading Procession incorrectly.  Are you putting the newly gained card (that is, Band of Misfits in your example) into your hand?  Procession does not gain to hand.

No, he is putting the Fortress in hand.

But it does seem strange, you would need lots of BoM and Processions to continuously do Fortress trick.

I just did that on Goko, and it was AWESOME.  You'd be surprised how frequently it occurred.  Also, once the Ruins are gone, Procession on Cultists is the BEST THING EVER even if there are no $6 Actions.
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Graham Nelson

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 08:18:27 pm »
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No, Procession doesn't of course put the 5-point card into your hand, it simply gains it. So you can't have a runaway win on turn 4, or anything like that.

But suppose you have one Procession and one Fortress. Use P on F, keep F, gain a Band of Misfits; play the F again; at this point you have nine cards in hand and four actions. You're bound to have some money out of all that. Say, you buy another Fortress.

Now it's turn five. Your deck has two F's, a P and a B-o-M. Let's suppose you get either of the last two with either of the first two, in the same hand - not at all unlikely, early on in the game. You repeat the trick. Drawing another four cards may well turn up the other Procession-or-Band-of-Misfits card, and then you get to play that, in the same turn, on the same Fortress card; and even if not, you can still play the Fortress itself for another two cards. If all goes well, you've now got one Fortress, one Procession, and three Bands of Misfits, and lots of cards in hand, actions, and money. You buy another Fortress, let's say, and a Hunting Grounds, which is a ridiculously strong draw-card and more or less ensures you can get Processions-or-Bands-of-Misfits reliably in future turns. Repeat, but not for long, because you're pretty unstoppable at this point.

In spite of the trashing theme, both of us managed to build fairly large decks, because quite a lot of cards cause gains; there are many extra buys, and purchases are fairly cheap, with interesting cards going for 3. Even some of the trashed ones gain you cards in recompense. (Notice that you gain a card net every time you Procession-on-Fortress, for one thing.) I was probably exaggerating when I said 40 cards, but certainly I was holding my entire deck (except cards in play) by the end of each of the last three turns, and it must have been at least twenty-five. We did trash a reasonable amount, all the same. I rather liked Forager, which is very much the new Trade Route, and has a wonderfully half-malevolent painting.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 08:49:02 pm »
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Still wondering if you're making a mistake somewhere.  I'll go off of the simple example first.

Procession-Fortress draws only 2 cards, leaving you with 6 cards in hand (including Fortress).  Playing Fortress still leaves you with 6 cards in hand, not 9.

It sounds like you think Fortress is +2 cards?  You actually say that in your bigger example ("you can still play the Fortress itself for another two cards").  Fortress can't be trashed; other than that it is a plain Village.
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Graham Nelson

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 09:17:35 pm »
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I beg your pardon, yes: I was misremembering (oh, for a server log). It was indeed +1 Card per play, so only +2 when Processioned. Nevertheless the outcome was as I said.

"Fortress can't be trashed; other than that it is a plain Village." Well, but it's not just that Fortress can't be trashed; trashing it allows it to be played again and in the same turn. Imagine there were a card reading, say,

"Hypothesis"
Play one Action card from your hand. You may then trash it. If you do, return this card to your hand.

There isn't such a card, of course, but it doesn't look horribly unbalanced. All the same, the combination of this and Fortress would allow an infinite loop, or rather, would yield arbitrary numbers of actions and put your entire deck in your end. Being given back to you to play again, rather than being trashed, is potent stuff, because it reverses the effect of trashings which were put there to provide a down-side to an otherwise overly strong card. "Procession" is just such a card, I think.

I would probably price Fortress at 5, and Procession at 7, like King's Court, which I think it's comparable to in power - it would then be a mid-game aspiration. Having both these cards at 4 means you can reliably get both of them early on, and then, trust me, you're off to the races.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 09:24:12 pm »
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Fortress+Procession is a killer combo, absolutely.  Fortress is also pretty good with anything else that trashes for whatever reason.  But on any board without trashing, Fortress is just a regular Village.

Procession can be really good in some setups, but you can't use it as freely as you would a Throne Room.  You're not going to want to Procession a Goons!

You should play some more games with the cards before jumping to conclusions.  The two have very high synergy, but how do they fare without each other?  Bridge can be game warping in some cases (KC, NV) but without support it may as well be a Silver with +Buy.  It's all very board dependent! :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:25:47 pm by eHalcyon »
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werothegreat

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 06:03:11 pm »
+1

Just came in the mail!  Now I need someone to play with...
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AHoppy

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 09:55:34 am »
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Alright, I got my copy yesterday and it came with a card that appeared to have just been thrown in (not in any of the plastic wrapping) and it seemed to imply that I would be able to get DA on goko for free when it was released.  Did anyone else get this? IS thins going to happen for future sets too?

greatexpectations

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2012, 09:59:04 am »
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part of Trisha's Q&A session answers most of your question:

Quote
Will there be any deal for getting price-cuts by buying physical copies of existing/future expansions? - Right now we can't do that just because it's hard to keep track of who bought what and things like that because we really aren't Rio Grande so it's hard to do that. The one thing we do have of course, that I'm sure some of you have seen, is the little cards that came in the Base set and came in Dark Ages. So you will be able to use those touch cards very soon and that will get you a nice little sampler pack that you can redeem. But as far as getting a discount on the type of things, we can't do that right now.
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Lekkit

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2012, 10:15:25 am »
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I actually got to play a game with Procession, Catacombs and Border Village. There was a lot of drawing, a lot of comboing but a few turns in the game it ended on piles, with one player winning with Two Duchies compared to the other players' one Duchy each. Now this was a four player game, but I think it will generally be the same with two players. Only that you'd get more cards but what you essentialy do is gaining a lot of Villages fast and playing them. Of course there's a lot of engine possibility when gaining a ton of cards, but it's not necessarily broken because it's a fast way of gaining cards. I mean, just look at IW.
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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2012, 10:21:13 am »
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The Ruins are a pleasing reminder of the base set cards as if they have decayed for centuries (ironically, since this is meant to be the Dark Ages and so to precede the base set chronologically, I suppose.)

Nah , there were plenty of wondrous and beautiful things preceding the Dark Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28historiography%29
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GigaKnight

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Re: Amazon just shipped my copy of Dark Ages!
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2012, 02:53:34 pm »
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(a) The theme is side-effects going off almost at random, which can feel like walking through a fireworks factory which has itself caught fire. This set was absolutely born to be played on Isotropic, with a really reliable engine resolving everything correctly, and a minimum of book-keeping. In my one game, I persistently had 7 or more Actions, frequently losing count since they arrived via Procession and thus were not tallyable using a binary tree of cards on the table; and I typically held an entire deck of 40 or so cards in my hand. It's not satisfying to be saying "well, I've lost count, but I've got lots of buys and actions now" so often.

I also use the binary tree method but I have a system for handling the card multipliers.  I lay the Throned (or Processioned) cards sideways just overlapping the bottom of the Throne (together they look like an upside-down T).  That lets me see at-a-glance exactly which cards were Throned and broadens the exposed area below the card to continue the tree.  Same thing with King's Court but I space the cards below the Kinged card a little wider so I can see how many "slots" I have left.  Describing this via text is a little awkward.  Let me know if that's not clear and I can mock something up.
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