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[Loschmidt]

So I've got a challenge. Sustain the Red Tape Pin (RTP) for as long as possible. I define this as playing 5 Beaurocrats every turn.

Now I realise that this isn't really a pin unless your opponent is playing BM with actions that don't draw at all (even Cantrips will ruin it), and even then is only a hard pin once they've started greening. There are also a boatload of counters, (Scheme being a very effective one as I discovered) but that's not the point, its about the challenge

This idea always appealed to me because I like engines that mutate and have to deal with inputs and outputs. If you want to engine to specifically deal with throwing 5 silvers into it every turn it's gonna need to have a way of burning them up.

Banned Cards: Watchtower

It occurs to me that the easiest way would be to make a fairly compact draw deck, TR/KC your Beaurocrats and just Watchtower the incoming silver. But I don't have Prosperity at home and so you also have to come up with another way

I tried it in a match against my housemates last night and had a lot more trouble than imagined. I thought a nice Spice Merchant/Stables combo would burn through the Silver nicely and it was going fine, but I had no where near enough Stables and burnt through my silver too quickly. I then completely emptied the Silver pile and my deck just stopped, it needed that fuel pretty badly. I think this combo would work better if I tried it again, but i don't think my housemates would take too kindly to that While I never successfully pinned any of them, it slowed the game down a lot. I, of course, lost.

Now i'm far from the most sophisticated engine builder around so I want to see what you guys think of this. How would you successfully play 5 beaurocrats every turn reliably. Bonus points for then also winning the game

[Gherald]

Only watchtower is banned?

I'll mention the obvious KC KC KC Scheme Scheme Scheme Bureaucrat Bureaucrat

But really, don't be greedy.  KC KC Scheme Scheme X --- where X is any attack card is fun enough.  Drain the copper pile with Monty!

[jomini]

There are several options here aside from Wt:

1. You can simply deplete the silver pile first.
2. You can go for draw/trash. E.g. A simple one is Scrying pool (or other reliable draw mechanism) Kc/Kc/B-crat/B-crat/Lab/Count.
3. TfB. Apprentice is a biggee here. You can make decent use of silvers to get good cards (e.g. upgrading silver -> 4 coin village) or to use up the cards (apprentice gives you non-terminal draw to hit lots of villages/b-crats and keeps silver manageable). E.g. Kc/Kc/B-crat/B-crat/Upgrade (silver -> mining village)
4. Ambassador. Like trashing, you can also just return the silvers to the pile/opponent. Yeah you flood the opponent with silver, but this also means they are less likely to draw.
5. Top deck management. Scheme is the easy way, but you have other options. For instance you can play Kc/Scavenger with two complete hands of Kc/Kc/Lab/B-crat/B-crat/Kc/Kc/Scav/Scav/Scav. Another option is is to gain an inn every turn and alternate between sets of pins; with Dark Ages allowing you access to the trash, you have unlimited inn gaining potential. Likewise, you can top deck the cards needed each turn with develop or armory. Again trashing/trash diving can make this last forever.

[werothegreat]

There are several options here aside from Wt:

1. You can simply deplete the silver pile first.
2. You can go for draw/trash. E.g. A simple one is Scrying pool (or other reliable draw mechanism) Kc/Kc/B-crat/B-crat/Lab/Count.
3. TfB. Apprentice is a biggee here. You can make decent use of silvers to get good cards (e.g. upgrading silver -> 4 coin village) or to use up the cards (apprentice gives you non-terminal draw to hit lots of villages/b-crats and keeps silver manageable). E.g. Kc/Kc/B-crat/B-crat/Upgrade (silver -> mining village)
4. Ambassador. Like trashing, you can also just return the silvers to the pile/opponent. Yeah you flood the opponent with silver, but this also means they are less likely to draw.
5. Top deck management. Scheme is the easy way, but you have other options. For instance you can play Kc/Scavenger with two complete hands of Kc/Kc/Lab/B-crat/B-crat/Kc/Kc/Scav/Scav/Scav. Another option is is to gain an inn every turn and alternate between sets of pins; with Dark Ages allowing you access to the trash, you have unlimited inn gaining potential. Likewise, you can top deck the cards needed each turn with develop or armory. Again trashing/trash diving can make this last forever.

Re: Amb:

If you can get the B-crat pin in place so that they always draw 5 Victory cards, it doesn't matter how many Silvers you give them, because they'll never see them anyway.

[Gherald]

Gaining an Inn isn't super helpful since you have to shuffle actions into a deck full of silvers, but I guess it works if we're apprenticing them.

To do it without KC or Scheme or Inn:

Scry an action-only deck entirely into your hand, play 5 bureaucrats with the necessary TR/villages, draw 2 silvers then play apprentice and chapel (or better yet Bishop them away FTW), and discard a second Scry and Scav it.

[jomini]

Gaining an Inn isn't super helpful since you have to shuffle actions into a deck full of silvers, but I guess it works if we're apprenticing them.

To do it without KC or Scheme or Inn:

Scry an action-only deck entirely into your hand, play 5 bureaucrats with the necessary TR/villages, draw 2 silvers then play apprentice and chapel (or better yet Bishop them away FTW), and discard a second Scry and Scav it.

Nope. You just need to draw them before gaining the inn.  Say I have played six B-crats and then played a Kc -> Lab. This allows me to draw all the silvers. Now say I play a grave robber to gain an inn from the trash. Whatever actions are in the discard (e.g. another set of Kc/Kc/KcLab/Lab/B-Crat/B-Crat/Grvr) can then be pulled out and shuffled into a new draw deck. Then I play the silvers (say buying a colony) and then I clean up. The silvers and the current set of actions go into the discard. The next hand draws from an action only deck. Making it a reliable pin is a pain, but theoretically that can be done too (e.g. add four havens to the deck so you can haven back a smithy & village each turn).

In like manner, you can draw your entire deck. Play the B-crats, draw some more, and then discard a set of pin cards + a dross card (say using secret chamber). Play just about anything for +1 card and again you have a draw deck with your combo in it. This is much harder for combos to work unless they are 4 cards or less, but it is doable. You need huge amounts of draw for the ever increasing silver count, but thankfully madman can help there (and you can regain mad men indefinitely with trash diving).

[chesskidnate]

... and you can regain mad men indefinitely with trash diving).

Remember, graverobber can only gain cards costing from 3-6

[eHalcyon]

... and you can regain mad men indefinitely with trash diving).

Remember, graverobber can only gain cards costing from 3-6

...which is exactly what you need to bring those Hermits back, so you can get more Madmen.

[^_^_^_^]

Hmm we need a card that makes things cost more then ay?

[chesskidnate]

... and you can regain mad men indefinitely with trash diving).

Remember, graverobber can only gain cards costing from 3-6

...which is exactly what you need to bring those Hermits back, so you can get more Madmen.

I think in his solution he was also buying things, meaning that hermit wouldn't pull them, but I could be wrong

[jomini]

... and you can regain mad men indefinitely with trash diving).

Remember, graverobber can only gain cards costing from 3-6

...which is exactly what you need to bring those Hermits back, so you can get more Madmen.

I think in his solution he was also buying things, meaning that hermit wouldn't pull them, but I could be wrong

Nah no need to buy anything once you get it set up, I mean this is mostly theoretical so why not say that we have either some other TfB to get new action cards so we can grave rob up to provinces or even have something like a HoP setup.


There are exactly three B-crat pins that I think have any real hope of working at present in real games. Most of the time, these are still long shots to take if your other plan has gone to pot:
1. Kc/Sch/B-crat - you can top deck, buy a province and if you hit the other guy he's done.
2. Rabble/B-crat/trash - Rabble makes it easier to get the 5 green card hand and allows you to draw up the 5 silvers you need to trash to maintain the pin.
3. B-Crat/Wt - This still has the problem that B-crat tends to lower early cash payouts and conflicts with Wt early. Having some sort of TfB to gain, top deck, and play B-crats in one go can make it a possible surprise (particularly if the only draw is Wt).