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Author Topic: Any GenCon or WBC news?  (Read 21223 times)

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guided

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 06:54:10 am »
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4 players (3 Witch players against 1 Moat player
The defender (37%) suddenly takes over and smashes his 3 attackers (19%)
How about 3 Witch players vs. BMU? I suspect Moat is a net drag here ;)
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DG

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 07:55:25 am »
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BMU is a hamster against the witches, 2% win.

However, change the 2 witches to 2 sea hags and the money player is favourite, which is understandable since money player has 10 curses and the opponents have 7 curses and 2 sea hags. It all varies again though as soon as you have one player with two sea hags (22%), two players with one sea hag (28%), and one money player (15%).
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DStu

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 08:00:47 am »
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What is interesting in these comparision for Multiplayer-Cursers: Though the Curses tend to have a much hugher influence on the game, as they are dealt out much faster, the decision not to curse makes a much lesser difference in terms of how many curses you are expected to gain in comparision to the other players, if all other players will curse (without defenses):
In 2p it's obviously 10:0,
in 3p it's 10:5:5,
in 4p it's 10:7:7:6
And you see that you don't get more curses than in 2p, you just gain them faster.

You come back to the 2p relations if only one player curses, because then it's in every case
(10:10:)10:0
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Kirian

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 03:30:24 pm »
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Huh.  So it seems the cheating thing was just a tiny side note, though it's hard to tell from the thread linked just how much that situation escalated.

In any case, I think between theory's and rrenaud's experiences, and the thread about the GenCon tourney, I won't be joining tournaments that are 1-on-1, just based on the possibility of kingmaking.  Especially true if it's a three-games-per-round format, which would make having 3- and 4-player games terrible.
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rrenaud

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 03:43:45 pm »
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I think WBC ran a great Dominion tournament this year, and that you should absolutely attend it if you are in the area.

That 2p is not the same as 4p and that we are much better in former is not a reason to dismiss the tournament as a whole.  Both of us learned about 4p game during/after the tournament.

I didn't observe any intentional cheating at the Dominion tournament this year (there was a little bit of "I play this remodel", "oh no you don't you ran out of actions", but it wasn't intentional cheating, and it there was always an apology and a quick retraction by the offending player). The GM even instituted a rule about opponents cutting your deck after a shuffle for the semis and finals.

Further, the GM explicitly gave permission for a player who was in the final to leave after round 1 to go to his other qualified final if he wanted to.

Of course, I am pretty interested in running a 2p Race and a 2p Dominion tournament aimed for more competitive rather than casual players at WBC, but I'll have to see if I can make it happen.
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HockeyHippo

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2011, 05:01:28 pm »
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I don't think a 4p Dominion tournament is a very good idea. I'm sure it was a lot of fun, but there is much more RNG in 4p that it would take way too many games to determine who the real best 4p Dominion player truly was.

I've played 250+ 2p Dominion games on Iso with about a 60% winning percentage and I play two 4p Dominion games every weekday(lunch break with coworkers). I'd estimate I've played about 120 4p Dominion games. So I'm at least a reasonably knowledgeable hybrid.

After playing online so much I thought I would destroy my opponents because of my experience. And much like you theory, I would cringe as I lost to players who only use Chapel for Estates. I noticed a few major differences between 4p and 2p.

Firstly, you can't take it seriously. It's a lot of fun, but you only win 25% of the time and there is way too much RNG. We play everyday and keep a leader board of the wins per month but it's casual and more fun that way.

Secondly,(I think this is known) attacks are way more effective in 4p. Bureaucrat can actually really hurt a Chapel strategy as you can go consecutive turns having your estates take away from your Chapel. Thief and Chapel is a very fun an interesting set up. It creates an interesting paradigm. Basically everyone is forced to open with Chapel because if you don't you'll be pretty far behind. But Thief then becomes an amazing card where you can actually receive 3 golds with one Thief. I once created a brilliant(self proclaimed :P) deck where I could draw my deck, play Thief a couple of times(taking some Golds) and then use a couple of drawers to pick them up immediately.

As a result of this, Reaction cards, especially against Curse givers, are far more viable since the Curse pile will still be decreasing even if you play your Reaction card.

Third, engines don't work nearly as well. Creating an engine is hindered more by Attack cards and there are less cards per player. The number of action cards does not increase in a 4p games compared to a 2p game so trying to build epic engines usually does not end very well.

Also, this kind of ties in with the last point. Many know this but the average VP card per player is less than it is in 2p. 8 Provinces/Colonys in 2p = 4 per person while in a 4 player game there are 12 Colonies resulting in 3 Colonies per player. This means you have less time to build your engine and  less time to use it. I guess this is a compensation for the increased number of Attacks played.

This is not to say strategies don't work. I played a Bishop/Minion game the other day which was only further accelerated by opponents Bishops and I won by a long shot. However I have played games where I've received 6 Coppers and 6 Curses in one round(double KC Montebank). 

Also something to note, playing a lot of 4 player games and 2 player games, does make you a better 3p player :P. One of our players has been away on vacation and I'm 6-2 in those 8 3p games.

Anyways, I think tournaments are very interesting and I'd love to compete in one. Even an online one!
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fp

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2011, 05:01:45 pm »
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This is sad.

With hundreds of entrants, the organizers should have expected players to drop, and even if players "are not allowed" to drop. It is not unreasonable to assume, for example, that player to may get ill or simply leaving inappropriately, and the organizer should plan for that.

I must say Rio Grande dropped the ball here. They must cater to their customers; most notably, they must understand that most people that play Dominion also play other games, and if they are going to hold a tournament at a convention with thousands of other things their customers might want to do, they should expect and prepare that players are going to leave and they should not take it personally.

Sounds like we have a ways to go before Dominion tournaments get really going.
Any suggestions?
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HockeyHippo

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2011, 05:56:27 pm »
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This is sad.

With hundreds of entrants, the organizers should have expected players to drop, and even if players "are not allowed" to drop. It is not unreasonable to assume, for example, that player to may get ill or simply leaving inappropriately, and the organizer should plan for that.

I must say Rio Grande dropped the ball here. They must cater to their customers; most notably, they must understand that most people that play Dominion also play other games, and if they are going to hold a tournament at a convention with thousands of other things their customers might want to do, they should expect and prepare that players are going to leave and they should not take it personally.

Sounds like we have a ways to go before Dominion tournaments get really going.
Any suggestions?

I agree about Rio dropping the ball.

Anyways, yeah let's start another thread with people interested in starting a tournament.
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theory

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2011, 06:37:30 pm »
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The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.
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rmgxt9

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2011, 06:56:57 pm »
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I'm the guy who was posting in the thread over at boardgamegeek, and since that thread's closed I wanted to post here to apologize to anyone whose experience was lessened by my outburst. I was stunned by Mr. Tummelson's words and not thinking clearly; to be honest, I think I spent the rest of the day in a haze because of it and the whole thing's been eating at me for days. If I'd known how it would turned out I'd have either not dropped at all or just walked straight out of the room. Regardless of what Mr. Tummelson did to me, though, losing my temper was the absolute wrong way to handle things and for that I'm truly ashamed. Thank for the kind words, all of you who've pm'ed me to offer support, I truly appreciate it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 07:03:52 pm by rmgxt9 »
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DG

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2011, 07:05:03 pm »
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The advantage of four player rounds seems to be the qualification of two players to the next round. With three player semi finals you're probably looking at one player qualifying from three, so that might cause different problems. Three player rounds will also lead to more tied scores and more tie-breaker rulings.
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Arya Stark

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2011, 07:34:28 pm »
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this is how my store runs tournaments, there is usually only 16-20 players, we had 21 once and it was tables of 3, that was my best 1  ;D

http://thegamerssanctuary.com/_PDF/Dominion%20Tournament%20Rules.pdf
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rod-

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2011, 08:18:02 pm »
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The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.
Players bring their own cards?  Works fine for magic.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2011, 08:30:07 pm »
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I just wanted to quickly point out that another reason 4p games should end faster, despite the more attacks, is that non-victory piles deplete MUCH faster with twice as many people trying to buy them.

sherwinpr

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2011, 09:41:16 pm »
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The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.

Maybe RGG should sell some basic kits of the seven basic cards (which is about 220 cards).  For two players, there need only be 170 base cards, so if we could take out 10 coppers and 10 silvers, we could bring this to 150 without drastically changing the game, which makes it the size of a small expansion.  These would not only be excellent for tournaments, but also for players who don't want to sleeve their cards, but are only worried about wearing out their non-kingdom cards (once you own a lot of expansion, each individual kingdom card stack sees relatively infrequent play).  Perhaps this could run for $25 retail.

The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables?  Then all we needs is for each player to purchase half a basic kit, or just bring a basic kit along.

Alternatively, forget the basic kit idea.  Each player (or roughly half the players) bring their own basic cards from their own purchased set, and the kingdom cards are supplied by the tournament organizers.
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Razzishi

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2011, 10:37:09 am »
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The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables? 

I'm not sure if a significant amount could be gained by finding out what cards are available at each table, especially if every player has equal access.  Unless there's a lot of potential downtime in the tournament for players to be practicing/simulating, I'm not sure how much of an advantage could be gained if everyone knows what every kingdom is going to be right when the tournament starts.  It's not like there's hidden information in the setup like there is in Bridge.
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sherwinpr

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2011, 04:05:10 pm »
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The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables? 

I'm not sure if a significant amount could be gained by finding out what cards are available at each table, especially if every player has equal access.  Unless there's a lot of potential downtime in the tournament for players to be practicing/simulating, I'm not sure how much of an advantage could be gained if everyone knows what every kingdom is going to be right when the tournament starts.  It's not like there's hidden information in the setup like there is in Bridge.

This is quite true.  However, I noticed that in my original suggestion, there would be issues with Black Market (this is easiest to fix, maybe just have 11 games instead of 13, or have a spare full-sized expansion or base game on hand), Potion cards, and Colonies/Platinums, but I'm sure something could be worked out. 
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HLennartz

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2011, 01:48:29 pm »
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If one considers the most important skill in Dominion "Adapting to new strategic situations," then the 3p/4p tournament idea is brilliant. All the highest-level players are so used to 2p that it tests this skill like nothing else could.
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painted_cow

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2011, 05:05:07 pm »
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3pl isnt a huge difference to 2pl.

4pl really is, cause of the 3 province per player than 4 provinces in 2pl and 3pl. that makes engines and trashing weaker and boosts straight BigMoney type of decks.

Knowing the skill of the opponents is really a key factor inside the game. When you spot a weaker opponent (many wrong buys etc.) then you have more time and need to get up to 6 provinces in a 3 player game for example.
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rrenaud

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2011, 05:28:52 pm »
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Well, there is a difference with 3p compared to 2p.  In 3p, if someone plays badly, that could hurt you.  3 player games are no longer zero sum.

theory lost in the Dominion finals two years ago when the last place player bought the last province.  Defense is more important as the number of players grows.  Cards that have strong self synergies aren't as good.
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HLennartz

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2011, 09:01:33 am »
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I was just thinking... what I'd *really* like to see in a tournament is the debut of a new expansion thrust upon the unsuspecting tournament goers  ;D...

Alternately, they could do like Richard Garfield did for one of the Magic: the Gathering Invitationals and make up a few proxied new cards used for that event only, getting a similar effect.
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ddubois

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 05:44:18 pm »
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I lost to people who weren't familiar with the cards (e.g., I had my Coppers Swindled into more Coppers, and players bought Coppers).

Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html

Laura Dewalt says the decision to swindle coppers into not-curses was strategic choice, as everyone other than her had gone Ambassadors, and she didn't want the curses coming back at her.

(Of course, that prompts the question: why did she buy Swindler if she wasn't going to use its best feature?)
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Empathy

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 08:17:54 pm »
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The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.

Maybe you could set up a situation like bridge/magic where the same kingdom is played over and over again on the same table. Each player would obviously switch table between rounds to not play a same kingdom twice. I don't know how practical this solution would be in terms of "peeking" at other tables, however. It would make games fairer in the sense that everyone would be playing the same kingdoms over the whole tournament.

Then the other issue is finding enough coppers/estates/gold and so on for each table, but not a full set of cards.
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cayvie

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2011, 10:00:00 pm »
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Huh.  So it seems the cheating thing was just a tiny side note, though it's hard to tell from the thread linked just how much that situation escalated.

In any case, I think between theory's and rrenaud's experiences, and the thread about the GenCon tourney, I won't be joining tournaments that are 1-on-1, just based on the possibility of kingmaking.  Especially true if it's a three-games-per-round format, which would make having 3- and 4-player games terrible.

Oh hey, I was there (finished 8th, I think). The guy who was caught cheating was sitting directly to my right when it happened. The guy across from him said "stop" on someone else's turn, called a judge, and asked "how many cards are in your hand?"

The guy clearly had six, and immediately folded, and admitted to grabbing a card (council room, I think) out of his discard pile during another person's turn.
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ratxt1

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 10:51:45 pm »
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Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html


this was painful to watch. some of the great strategy insights i have gained in this video (these are all paraphrases of stuff she said in the video) if i open tactician/embargo it might have been a better play to embargo the provinces (none having been bought) instead of the tacticians. island is an elite opener and should almost always be bought(and then more islands massed). swindler is a good thing to buy so you can swindle your opponets silvers into ambassodors. merchant ship was a goodbuy because its better than eexplorer. and last but not least you shouldn't swindle coppers into curses because of the wealth of ambassodors in your opponets deck (which you swindled there in the first place) 
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