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Author Topic: Any GenCon or WBC news?  (Read 26499 times)

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Karrow

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2011, 03:07:31 pm »
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Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html


this was painful to watch. some of the great strategy insights i have gained in this video (these are all paraphrases of stuff she said in the video) if i open tactician/embargo it might have been a better play to embargo the provinces (none having been bought) instead of the tacticians. island is an elite opener and should almost always be bought(and then more islands massed). swindler is a good thing to buy so you can swindle your opponets silvers into ambassodors. merchant ship was a goodbuy because its better than eexplorer. and last but not least you shouldn't swindle coppers into curses because of the wealth of ambassodors in your opponets deck (which you swindled there in the first place)

Unable to watch the the video at work, but I'd note for anyone to be careful criticizing 4-player strategy.

4p is VERY different.  3 piles can end the game on turn 8 without any extra buys, gains, or curses.  I've won 4p games with a 4-3-3-3 score buying one estate.  I've even won games with the starting 3vp simply because others trashed their opening estates and I did not.  Add any +buy, gain cards, or curse givers and things can get crazy.

For example, we all know that Pirate Ship and Thief suck.  CouncilRoom tells us so.  But I've seen countless times where a great 2-player gamer walks into a 4-player game and laughs and criticizes people as they buy these cards over a smithy because we all know smithy is better.  But after 2 rounds of the other 3 players all playing pirate ship or thief on their turns there comes a very long silence from they guy who was just telling everyone how stupid they were as he realizes that it's likely he will never draw a treasure again.

It's even funnier when they complain they only lost because other people played stupid.  They play stupid, but they keep winning?  4p strategy is different, not stupid.

For swindling silvers to ambassadors and not copper to curse?  It's not necessarily stupid in 4-player.  Lets say she swindles coppers to curses, then after the next shuffle 3 players ambassador the curse back.  How is she sitting now?  Swindle silver to ambassador?  That's turning their $2 producing non-terminal into a 0$ terminal.  A fast 3-pile 4-player game can get crazy fast with swindlers and ambassadors.  What are they going to do with ambassadors in a lightning fast 4p game?  Ambassador an estate?  That's a quick suicide.  Ambassador a copper?  In a fast 4p that can end on 3 piles that cost 3$ or less coppers don't really hurt that much.  So I'd say she may understand 4p swindler & ambassador better than many here.

Massing Islands stupid?  Again, in a 4p games that can end fast on 3 piles, things are different.  In games that can be won with estates, islands are very powerful.

For example of 4-player strangeness, here's a game where two opponents open 5-2 and they go with Ghost Ship & Saboteur.  We all know how long a Ghost Ship game can take, and two opponents have a province on me.  But I easily win on turn 16 with 0 Province, 1 Duchy, & 15 estates.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110919-205648-673377b2.html
Looking back at the game, I could have skipped the duchy.  Had I changed a few buys I could have won on turn 14.  But if you look at councilroom it shows that an average ghost ship province game takes 24 turns.  Of all cards in dominion, ghost ship is #5 in creating games with the most number of turns.  If you run the stats at 24+/-2, you'd think a 14 or 16 turn ghost ship game is extremely rare.  But the stats are heavily weighted to 2-player games.  I'd wager it's not as rare in a 4-player.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2011, 04:14:58 pm »
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Interesting insights on 4p games in this thread.  I wonder how skill-intensive 4p games are.  I agree that they are a lot of fun, but you get so few hands to play (and it's so easy for someone in position 3 or 4 to pre-maturely end a game) shuffle luck seems to play an even larger role. 

If we're interested in investigating 4p v. 2p, maybe we could designate a particular day on Isotropic where we play such games.  That would give us a pool of skilled players and enough participants to run a 4p game on a regular basis.

Or 3p games.  I think guided's comment below about it being the best balanced matches my experience as well.  It allows for a more rock/scissor/paper style of play.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 04:22:16 pm by Taco Lobster »
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Epoch

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2011, 04:19:27 pm »
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I kind of wonder -- without much experience in 3+p games myself -- whether there are just a few too few cards in supply in 3p and 4p games.  Like, would they play better with 16 cards in supply instead of 12?
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guided

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 04:20:47 pm »
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3P I feel has the best game balance. 4P does start to become more of a test of shuffle luck.
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Buggz

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2011, 04:44:22 pm »
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I also enjoy 3P games the most. 4P games are still great fun, but rather because of the social aspect. I've tried a couple of 5P games, but then you're waiting too long before stuff happens, attack cards resolve astonishingly slow and the games tend to end after a rather short amount of turns that still takes a while to play, which in turn means the deck doesn't get shuffled that often.
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ratxt1

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2011, 07:33:37 pm »
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Unable to watch the the video at work, but I'd note for anyone to be careful criticizing 4-player strategy.

though you could say that what she said was good strategy (which it could be) you can tell by watching the video that these are not the insights coming from a grandmaster. i think yes islands are a good buy but not as good as she makes it out to be. also you really have to hear her when she talks about embargoing the tactician. i'm pretty sure her quote went something like "i was suprised nobody bought tactician" you embargoed them! and they wern't even the best card in the kingdom

and it wasn' just me criticing her this was inspired by theroys post earlier on in the thread (where he expresses his frustrations on losing to these people)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2011, 07:57:48 pm »
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I agree she doesn't come off as the most knowledgeable dominion expert in the video, but she's clearly at least a little bit good. She got 2nd place... Regarding her specific comments: Islands are good, but not worth skipping sea hag over (sea hag into island should beat straight-up island). The embargo thing confused me a little. And I really facepalmed at the thing about (rough quote) "I was going for cutpurse/bazaar/wharf but couldn't get enough bazaars (duh, you're trying to get multiple kinds of $5 cards in a 4p game...), and I added a navigator since if you draw cutpurse bazaar and navigator together, that's $5 so you can probably get to $8 (you can say that about practically any 3 cards...)".

But it's funny to think that she and her friends could be looking at theory's blog and criticizing the same way. "Double ambassador? Lol. That's so n00b. If your opponents just get swindler to drain the piles, and your deck will never kick in". Clearly something that didn't occur to theory before that game, but pretty sound logic for a 4-player game...
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DG

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2011, 08:17:40 pm »
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What she said generally made some sort of sense and I only really have a problem about what she didn't say. Moving away from your preconceptions and putting together a new strategy is good Dominion. Buying islands and skipping nasty attacks was bold and proved correct. Perhaps if two people had tried it they would have denied each other vp and failed, but that's 4 player Dominion. She decided during the course of a game to swindle silver-> ambassadors and copper->copper, and it probably wasn't her original intention, but she was probably right, so that's good play too.
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timchen

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Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2011, 08:50:22 pm »
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One big problem of a 4p game, is that the "bad play" from others can hurt you. This never happens in a 2p game. That being said, 4p ambassador is interesting. Estates will go like crazy if 2 players or more are ambassadoring. Trying to thin the deck sounds impractical. Indeed if 3 piles is a possibility it is probably a good idea to grab points early.
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