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Author Topic: Swindler troubles  (Read 2032 times)

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philosophyguy

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Swindler troubles
« on: August 05, 2011, 11:21:45 am »
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I played two games yesterday in which Swindlers became an issue for me. I'd appreciate feedback on what I should have done differently.

Game 1: Chapel, Council Room, Counting House, Golem, Minion, Pawn, Potion, Quarry, Shanty Town, Swindler, and Talisman
I went first, opening Minion, then Chapel after seeing my opponent open Swindler/Shanty Town. My plan was to get lots of Minions and Chapel away Coppers/Curses so my opponent had fewer Swindler targets for cursing. The problem was that this left me vulnerable to having Minions swindled into Counting Houses. I'm guessing I should have opened Pawn rather than Chapel for my second buy, but I wonder if Minion was a bad strategy in this setup because there was such a bad $5 around.

Game 2: Apothecary, Chancellor, Chapel, Hamlet, Herbalist, Laboratory, Native Village, Pearl Diver, Potion, Swindler, and Vineyard
Lots of spammable $2 actions, lots of +buy, and Vineyard seemed like a winning combo. I screwed up my deck my buying Vineyards too early and so ran out of coin, but I also took a huge hit from Swindlers trashing several Vineyards, including after there were none left to replace. I don't know if I got unlucky with how frequently the Swindlers hit my Vineyards rather than the $2 cards (which would have had less effect on my deck) and I just timed my strategy wrong or if this was a bad setup for trying an Action-rich strategy.

As always, feedback is greatly appreciated!
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HockeyHippo

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Re: Swindler troubles
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 12:52:50 pm »
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If you see your opponent opening with swindler, you need to adjust your strategy. You knew you would have a fairly clean deck so your minions would get trashed easily. I would have just gone big money since there would be nothing to trash your golds into, besides other golds.

Also, if you can't beat em join em. Swindler is a pretty strong opening, in both games you neglect its power.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Swindler troubles
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 04:14:49 pm »
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So in game 1, where I had to act first with 5 coin, should I have not gone for Minion since Swindler was on the board and there were lots of bad 5s? What should I have opened?

If I still should have opened Minion, how should I have changed my approach after my opponent buys Swindler?
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ackack

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Re: Swindler troubles
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 04:25:20 pm »
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Slight tangent: I used to think otherwise, but these days I feel that Minion is not a very good opener. The main problem is that it doesn't give money AND attack; you do one or the other. And early on, attacking is often counterproductive because you aren't likely to draw enough to buy anything good with 4 cards. Thus, early on it's an action using Silver. If there isn't a very strong 2 like Chapel or Lighthouse (at least in a Minion game Lighthouse is awesome), I think it's easy for your lead in the Minion race to be illusory because your early buying power will be weaker than your opponent anyway.

With that out of the way, game 1 is very tricky. Chapel/Minion against Swindler will run into some real problems, and in addition the Minion attack is probably less mean in a Chapel game where the average card value is higher. Opening Swindler/Chapel and moneying up might still be best here; I'm quite uncertain how I'd play it.

Game 2, getting your Vineyards Swindlered might be a blessing if it helps you speed the game up. The bigger issue here is that this is a poor setup for Vineyards. 20 turns in, you haven't even gotten them up to Duchies yet.The idea of being able to get a lot of little cards is a good one, but +buy is a much weaker way of doing this than gainers like Ironworks or University. The issue is that if you're spending all your time buying rinky dink cards, you probably don't have that much buying power and are going to have a constipated deck in the near future. Vineyards need to either be played very fast, like Gardens, or you need to be able to get lots of actions to make them competitive with Provinces.
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Razzishi

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Re: Swindler troubles
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 01:18:27 am »
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Slight tangent: I used to think otherwise, but these days I feel that Minion is not a very good opener. The main problem is that it doesn't give money AND attack; you do one or the other. And early on, attacking is often counterproductive because you aren't likely to draw enough to buy anything good with 4 cards. Thus, early on it's an action using Silver. If there isn't a very strong 2 like Chapel or Lighthouse (at least in a Minion game Lighthouse is awesome), I think it's easy for your lead in the Minion race to be illusory because your early buying power will be weaker than your opponent anyway.

Huh?  What else are you going to get?  Your buying power is going to be weaker than someone on a 4/3 start without a Lighthouse, but that doesn't mean you totally ignore Minion on a generic board.  Having one less Silver will be problematic, but most $2s will provide a little help.  If you can get a Haven, Cellar, or Pawn you can get a bit more effective buying power.  Hamlet works well in Minion decks, and you want to pick one up early so you're not forced to waste a large hand on getting a source of +buy, although it obviously doesn't do much for your income.  Embargo will provide you a one shot Silver at least.  Courtyard won't fit great into your deck without help, but it at least might help you get $5 once or twice.

If you're concerned about buying power, I can't think of anything else I'd really rather have than a Silver that turns into a Minion in future turns. 
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ackack

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Re: Swindler troubles
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 10:13:42 am »
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Huh?  What else are you going to get?  Your buying power is going to be weaker than someone on a 4/3 start without a Lighthouse, but that doesn't mean you totally ignore Minion on a generic board.

If we're talking about generic boards, it's hard to talk about them without discussing the other 4s and 5s. This thread offers an example where Minion was almost certainly an inferior choice to numerous other cards as an opener. Not buying a Minion on your opening 5 doesn't mean that you're giving up on Minions altogether; it just means that there can be better options even if your ultimate plan is a Minion deck.

On this particular board, like I said above, I think there's a good chance Swindler/Chapel is a better open than Minion/Chapel. A Chapeled down Minion deck seems very susceptible to Swindler and is of questionable viability. If I'm not going full Minion, it's not clear that I would prefer a Minion to a Swindler.
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