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Author Topic: Opening Response  (Read 3084 times)

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Auroch

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Opening Response
« on: August 04, 2011, 02:13:08 pm »
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Board: Bishop, Council Room, Cutpurse, Ghost Ship, Herbalist, Mountebank, Philosopher's Stone, Potion, Sea Hag, Smugglers, and University

2: Herbalist;3: Smugglers, (Silver); 4: Bishop, Cutpurse, Potion, Sea Hag; 5: Council Room, Ghost Ship, Mountebank;  P: Philosopher's Stone, University

Both players start 3/4, and both buy Silver turn 1. Your opponent, going first, buys Bishop. What 4 do you open with, and does his Bishop impact your choice?

I had been preparing to open Silver/Sea Hag, but since Bishop nerfs Hag and makes Cutpurse have more impact, I switched to Cutpurse. I won the game, but due more to my opponent's misplays than my good play.
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chwhite

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 02:26:05 pm »
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I'd probably open Silver/Cutpurse, not so much because of Bishop but because of Mountebank- it gives curses (so you can probably avoid Hag) and it gives coppers (ensuring the Cutpurse remains effective all game).  You could theoretically set up a draw engine with University and CR, but the simpler route (Cutpurse, a couple Mountebanks, and otherwise BM) is almost certainly better here.  Bishop is also tempting, because it's probably going to be a long game and those chips could pile up, but I'd be worried about overloading on terminals.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 02:34:20 pm by chwhite »
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Epoch

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 02:46:39 pm »
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I feel like University/CR is the way to go here.  Your opponent is giving you a little free trashing with the Bishop, which will help, he isn't signaling an immediate attack via Sea Hag, so you've got some time to get your first (slow) Universities into play, and obviously University lets you buy your CRs easier, even if you trash your money heavily.  And of course you get built in +buy from CR.  Throw in a Mountebank (off your first University, probably) to slow your opponent down (and chuckle if he's going to try to use a Bishop to counter a Mountebank), maybe another Mountebank once your deck starts to fire, and bob's your uncle.

Obviously it's a bit chancy because of the potion cost of University and the opportunity for your opponent to swap into fairly nasty attacks that could swamp your engine.  But he didn't get a lot of buying power in his opening turns, and there's a decent chance he won't get Mountebank during turns 3/4 (lesse: 1/6 that his Silver doesn't get into turns 3/4, and then if it does get into turns 3/4, at least some chance that it doesn't come with 3 [Coppers|Bishop]), and also at least some chance that he doesn't buy Mountebank, since he didn't go gonzo for it at opening, and will be chancing terminal conflicts (especially if he's deck-thinning).

I don't know, I probably have a bias in favor of cards/actions engines, but I'd chance it.  Cutpurse seems like a lower risk/lower reward option.  It's less likely to screw you, but also less likely to utterly dominate.

EDIT:  So, we basically agree that Bishop on turn 1/2 is probably a mistake, right?  It's a single-card trasher that gives you the buying power of Copper, and it's a terminal in a set where your opponent is never going to get +2 Actions (because if you don't get Potion in turns 1/2, University is obviously a mistake), and there are at least two other very strong terminals (Mountebank, Council Room), one of which is a hand-size increaser?  I don't feel like Cutpurse capitalizes on your opponent's mistake.  It's just a reasonable starter.  It's probably a better starter than Bishop.  But Potion seems like it potentially capitalizes on your opponent's mistake because the problem with University/CR is that it will take too long to get going, but your opponent has chosen a fairly slow opening.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 02:51:28 pm by Epoch »
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Davio

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 03:51:20 am »
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I open Silver/Potion here without much thought.

My main goal is to get University/CR's with a Mountebank.
Throw in some Phil Stones when my deck gets fat, which with the +Buy from CR can be quite important.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 04:24:53 am »
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I open Silver/Potion here without much thought.

My main goal is to get University/CR's with a Mountebank.
Throw in some Phil Stones when my deck gets fat, which with the +Buy from CR can be quite important.

Philosopher's Stone does not like being in Council Room decks...
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Davio

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 07:33:47 am »
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I open Silver/Potion here without much thought.

My main goal is to get University/CR's with a Mountebank.
Throw in some Phil Stones when my deck gets fat, which with the +Buy from CR can be quite important.

Philosopher's Stone does not like being in Council Room decks...
That I understand. I wasn't referring to it as a main target, more something like a tide changer if things don't go as planned.
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DG

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 09:45:30 am »
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Getting a drawing deck where you can play 5 universities, 3 council rooms, ghost ship, then bishop, mountebank will be fantastic, but that takes a long time to assemble and will still keep misfiring. I'd rule that out, so you're then probably looking at a basic money + attack deck that can take enough green cards to offset the bishop points. Mountebank, Cutpurse, Ghost Ship are all good and perhaps the simulator can work out a good mix. In real play you'd have to balance the number of philosopher's stones, mountebanks, ghost ships, and bishops depending upon just what your opponent does too.

The sea hag looks plainly inferior to the mountebank here. It just extends the game while the bishop player collects points. The smugglers might pay off with some philosopher's stones but will otherwise congest your deck.
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ackack

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 10:34:30 am »
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Philosopher's Stone vs. Mountebank is a pretty intriguing matchup. I've had at least one game where I got absolutely spanked by somebody who ignored Mountebanks altogether and ended up with 3 or 4 hugely powerful Stones.

Also, can Smugglers even get Stones? I didn't think Potion cost cards were smuggleable.
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DG

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 10:57:21 am »
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Quote
Also, can Smugglers even get Stones? I didn't think Potion cost cards were smuggleable.


They don't. They just fill your deck with cards.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 05:00:44 pm »
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I tried the X University, X-2 Council Room, Ghost Ship, Bishop, Mountebank deck that DG mentioned here:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201108/05/game-20110805-142325-bd460232.html

My opponent was a beginner, but the deck might be viable (and especially if your opponent opens Bishop/Silver). I think you should probably open Potion/nothing instead of Potion/Silver though to keep the deck size to a minimum (it doesn't need any money anyway).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 05:26:05 pm by Geronimoo »
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DG

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Re: Opening Response
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 06:42:02 pm »
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You were a bit unkind to pull that sort of deck on that poor guy  :)
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