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Author Topic: Action Card Equations  (Read 21270 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2011, 03:46:54 pm »
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You could make basically all of these with only throne room, king's court, and pawn.

rod-

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2011, 03:48:40 pm »
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4: Trading post (chapel trashed only 2) 7: Scrying pool(draws no extra action cards, leaving 5 in hand; assuming tournament is countered by opposing province)
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Auroch

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2011, 03:51:31 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2011, 03:53:54 pm »
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You did give me an idea though: Scrying Pool works for your #6.

Ha -- indeed it does.  It wasn't the answer for #6 that I was thinking of, but it's perfectly valid.

For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2011, 03:59:02 pm »
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Another couple of simple-looking ones that I think are pretty hard:

12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory (oops, this one was impossible by the method I had in mind)
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory


For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
Clever! But you've played 3 action cards here, not 1. If we allowed solutions like that, we'd have to allow things like Throne Room too, and that would really ruin the puzzles I think.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 04:56:42 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2011, 04:00:35 pm »
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This puzzle could be nice to teach beginners how many, many action cards are not necessarily better than a single one.
4. Trading Post
7. Village when your oppponent has no Province in your hand - this was for the first version.
8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

4 is right.  7 was right until I corrected the puzzle, but you have the gist of what I was doing with the Tournament.  I'm sure you can come up with a similar answer that fits my change.  But for bonus points, come up with a solution that replicates what Spy did.  Actually, simply "Spy" is a valid answer, but that's no fun.

For 8, unless I counted wrong (which may well be) I think your solution falls one action short of being a level 3 City.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2011, 04:04:13 pm »
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8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

Your action counts don't add up on this one.

7. A boring answer you probably weren't looking for: Caravan. This is assuming you don't reveal a Province, but an opponent does. Spy has no "primary effects" in this sequence as you define "primary effects", so I'm not sure why it's there.

8. Grand Market. Steward for +$2, Pawn for +1 buy, +1 card.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2011, 04:05:15 pm »
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4: Trading post (chapel trashed only 2) 7: Scrying pool(draws no extra action cards, leaving 5 in hand; assuming tournament is countered by opposing province)

Your answers (for #4 and #7) are correct.  The one for #7 is not what I had, though.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2011, 04:07:07 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2011, 04:12:39 pm »
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8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

Your action counts don't add up on this one.

7. A boring answer you probably weren't looking for: Caravan. This is assuming you don't reveal a Province, but an opponent does. Spy has no "primary effects" in this sequence as you define "primary effects", so I'm not sure why it's there.

8. Grand Market. Steward for +$2, Pawn for +1 buy, +1 card.

Right on #8.  Also probably right on #7, and you could make a case for Great Hall and a non-activated Menagerie, too, but to match the effects more closely, come up with a solution that conveys knowledge about the top card.  Unfortunately this was probably not a very good puzzle, as even with that subtlety, there are still four answers I know of, two of which are also boring.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2011, 04:24:53 pm »
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For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
Clever! But you've played 3 action cards here, not 1. If we allowed solutions like that, we'd have to allow things like Throne Room too, and that would really ruin the puzzles I think.

I agree, so I'm glad that's not it.  The only reason I thought it might not be cheating is that you're still only playing one action card out of your hand and stopping immediately after fully resolving that one card.

I'm really stumped, though.  4 Labs + Smithy with an unlimited draw pile results in an 11-card hand, a net of +7 cards.  We've eliminated Scrying Pool, Apprentice, and Library.  We can't use Throne Room or King's Court.  I thought of an optimal Tribute, but that's only +4 at best.  Native Village, pulling tons of cards off the mat, would leave you with too many actions.  Erm.  Oh, maybe this works:  Counting House.  Ordinarily I'd say pulling cards from your discard pile is different from drawing them from your deck, but if we assert that the deck is currently empty and the discard only has 7 Coppers in it (or has at least 7 Coppers that shuffle to the top), then Counting House would be exactly equivalent.  Wow, that puzzle is excellent.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2011, 04:35:31 pm »
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12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory

13. Tribute, revealing Island and Nobles.

No idea about 12.  The only even remotely possible solution I see is to use the same card differently, but I can't make it come out right due to the lack of an Action-Treasure card.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 04:50:50 pm by rinkworks »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2011, 04:56:12 pm »
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12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory

13. Tribute, revealing Island and Nobles.

No idea about 12.  The only even remotely possible solution I see is to use the same card differently, but I can't make it come out right due to the lack of an Action-Treasure card.
Ha! My turn to be embarrassed. Yes, #12 requires a nonexistent Action/Treasure card for Tribute. Oops.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2011, 04:57:47 pm »
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Counting House.
Yep! ;D

I would also consider pulling cards from the discard different from drawing them, but as you note this is no barrier to a complete solution.
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Glooble

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2011, 06:25:18 pm »
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6. Apothecary, when three of the cards on your deck are coppers or potions?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 06:31:04 pm by Glooble »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2011, 06:52:15 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.
Just change the answer to Tactician. Done. I thought of that forever ago, but I thought it was wrong because for some stupid reason I got it stuck in my head that card has +1 Action on it even though it doesn't.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 07:27:29 pm »
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Glooble: Another right answer for #6, and also not the one I was thinking of.  Very close, though.
guided: Correct, and what I had in mind.

We now have solutions for all 10 of my puzzles, although the particular solutions I had for #6 and #7 have not been guessed yet.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 07:33:11 pm »
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A simple one that isn't too difficult but requires a little outside-the-box thinking:

14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:05:49 pm by guided »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 08:05:33 pm »
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I've deleted a bunch of stuff above from my previous broken #15 problem. Here's a different one! Still very tricky I think, though there might be trivial alternate solutions I haven't thought of.

15. Village + Farming Village + Ironworks + Upgrade + Upgrade + Smithy

edit: For the purposes of this puzzle, assume no supply piles are empty.


Small hint: This is OK by the lights of rinkworks's official solutions, but if you haven't read those solutions there are some judgment calls here about what constitutes a "primary effect". Only the final contents of your hand, draw pile, and discard pile matter here (in addition to your accumulated stock of coin and actions). This is in keeping with the spirit of not counting things like next-turn Duration effects and attack effects against other players.

Larger but still fairly small hint: You could technically replace Farming Village with Village by the rules, but then the net effects wouldn't match as nicely :) So for my intended solution Farming Village actually does have a different effect than Village.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:10:34 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 08:19:13 pm »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.

Quote
15. Laboratory + Hamlet + Bazaar + Black Market + Ironworks

You posted a retraction of this puzzle, but I'd already worked it out far enough to suspect something was wrong.  If my idea was what you were going for, you can fix the puzzle merely by adding Peddler.

If adding Peddler does NOT fix it, then DON'T READ WHAT I WROTE BELOW.  Instead, consider this a new puzzle for you:

Laboratory + Peddler + Hamlet + Bazaar + Black Market + Ironworks = ?

In any case, here is my thought process on the original puzzle (which didn't have Peddler).  I typed it as I was working out, so it's an accurate reflection of the approach I took:

No treasures are played with the Black Market, so that's a clue.  Since no other card can buy stuff from the Black Market, nothing could have been purchased unless "Black Market" is the answer.  But it can't be, because Bazaar and Ironworks produce other effects that Black Market alone can't replicate.  So, to make a short story long, the Black Market is only there for the +$2 coins.  Add in Laboratory and Bazaar, and we have 5 cards in hand, 1 action, and +$3.  This is starting to smell like Horse Traders, but it's not, because it won't gain a card like Ironworks does.  So what provides at least +$3 and gains a card costing up to 4?  Baron!  With that hypothesis in mind, we can now work backwards from it.  Ironworks gains the Estate; since Estate is a victory card, we draw a card.  So we're still at a 5 card hand, and have 0 actions.  We still need to get rid of a card, and we're short a buy and a coin.  That tells us how we should play Hamlet.  Discard a single card, not for the action but for the buy.  Now everything is right, except we're only up $3, whereas Baron supplies $4.  Close, but no cigar.  Dare I hope that there's an error in the question?  If not, and Baron isn't correct, then a new puzzle with the same cards plus Peddler would be a good one.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:22:11 pm by rinkworks »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2011, 08:24:48 pm »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.
King's Court says you may reveal a card. It doesn't say you may play a revealed card less than 3 times. Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players. Jester doesn't work because it has +$2.

I was going to add an "unlimited supply piles" caveat to #14, until I realized that the game would be over already if there were fewer than 3 cards available to gain, since there are at least 5 piles to gain from (Workshop, Estate, Silver, Copper, Curse).

As for my retracted puzzle, the reason I finally retracted it was that it required Treasure cards to be played on Black Market, and that's a no-no under the rules.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:30:31 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 08:34:54 pm »
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King's Court says you may reveal a card. It doesn't say you may play a revealed card less than 3 times. Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players. Jester doesn't work because it has +$2.

Aargh!  I guess I've been staring at these cards too long.  You're right, I was using King's Court very wrongly.  And despite thinking of the answer, I somehow thought the resulting hand-size wouldn't turn out right.
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Glooble

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 10:48:40 pm »
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6. Would it be Scout, then? Assuming four victory cards on the deck.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 10:53:49 pm »
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6. Would it be Scout, then? Assuming four victory cards on the deck.

Right!  I mean, you had it right before, too.  But now you have it right the same way I did.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 05:13:34 am »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.

Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this would be just KC/Workshop (w/o the Lab), wouldn't it...?
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