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rinkworks

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Action Card Equations
« on: August 04, 2011, 01:51:29 pm »
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I made up what I hope is an interesting type of puzzle that, besides being fun to solve, will be interesting for others to make up questions for.

The idea is that I provide two or more official Dominion action cards like this:

  • Village + Peddler = ?

And you have to come up with a single Dominion action card that is fundamentally equivalent in terms of its effect when you play it.  For example, the answer to the question above would be Bazaar, because playing Village, then Peddler, leaves you with five cards still in your hand, two actions left to play, and a coin -- exactly what playing Bazaar does.

General Rules:

  • We're only interested in the primary effects of the cards.  It doesn't matter that Village + Peddler cycles your deck a little more than a single Bazaar, or that Village + Peddler activates Conspirator better and lowers the cost of Peddler more.  Sometimes what constitutes a "primary effect" is a judgment call, but just try to match card effects as close as you can.
  • Your answer need not be equivalent in all cases, only in a single case of your choosing.  For example, if the question is "Great Hall + Steward = ?" then "Moat," "Chancellor," and "Chapel" are ALL correct answers, because it's your prerogative to decide how the Steward was played in the question.  Likewise, with the "Chancellor" answer, it's your prerogative to assert that the "discard deck" option was not taken, and, with the "Chapel" answer, that two cards were trashed to it.  Where appropriate, explain what behavior/situation you want to specify for any of the cards in the question or your answer.
  • Only action cards are allowed (both in the questions and the answers).
  • All turns start with five cards in hand.
  • An unlimited number of cards are available to draw.  (Otherwise drawing cards could be too easily manipulated to change the number of cards you wind up with in your hand.)
  • The cards mentioned in the question are the ONLY cards played thus far on a turn.  Likewise, your answer should be the ONLY card played.  So if your answer to a question is "Conspirator," it can't be an activated Conspirator.
  • Effects to other players don't matter.  A Witch, therefore, can be considered equivalent to a Moat.  If you do find a solution that matches attack effects as well, though, give yourself bonus points.
  • Assume no duration cards played the previous turn.  Also, next-turn effects of Duration cards don't matter.  For example, "Merchant Ship" is a valid answer to the question "Great Hall + Conspirator = ?"  Again, though, if you do find a solution that matches the next-turn effects as well, give yourself bonus points.

Hopefully that's all I need for rules to this.  So without further ado, some actual questions, roughly ordered by difficulty.  Apologizes in advance if I made any miscalculations.

1. Village + Bazaar + Herbalist = ?

2. Village + Market + Laboratory = ?

3. Native Village + Peddler = ?

4. Laboratory + Village + Chapel + Explorer = ?

5. Trusty Steed + Workshop = ?

6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?

7. Village + Spy + Moat + Tournament = ?

8. Laboratory + Village + Village + Steward + Pawn = ?

9. Native Village + Native Village + Native Village + Mine + Mine + Mine + Mine = ?

10. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Village + Village + Village + Village + Bureaucrat + Bureaucrat + Explorer + Explorer + Cellar + Cellar + Chancellor = ?

The Answers, posted as people solve them:

1. Festival.
2. City (fully activated).
3. Fishing Village (with the next-turn effect ignored, as per the rules).
4. Trading Post, with the Chapel having trashed two cards.  Alternate solutions:  Explorer, if the Chapel is used to trash zero cards.  Mine, if the Chapel is used to trash a Copper.
5. Ironworks, gaining a Great Hall or Island.  The Trusty Steed is used for +2 Cards, +2 Actions.
6. Scout, turning up four Victory cards.  Alternate solutions:  Scrying Pool, where the next three cards in the deck are action cards.  Apothecary, where three of the four cards turned up are Coppers and/or Potions.
7. Pearl Diver, with a deck of two cards; alternately, Wishing Well with an incorrect guess.  Both of these answers provide you with knowledge of the top card of your deck, just as if you'd played Spy and kept the revealed card.  Unfortunately, there is a more boring solution:  Spy.
8. Grand Market, if you use the Steward for +$2 and the Pawn for +1 Card, +1 Buy.
9. Tactician.  Your hand is NV, NV, NV, Mine, Mine.  Play two NVs to put two more Mines on the mat, then the third to pull them off.  Play all Mines with no treasures in hand.  In the end, you have no cards and no actions.
10. Trusty Steed, taking the +2 Coins and 4 Silvers option.  The Bureaucrats and Explorers gain the Silvers.  The two Cellars flush those Silvers out of your hand and into the discard pile.  The Chancellor discards your deck and earns you the +2 Coins.  The Laboratories and Villages merely set things up so you can play all those actions and be left with the same number of cards and actions that Trusty Steed would leave you with.


Edit: Corrected question #1 (added a Village).
Edit: Corrected question #2 (swapped Bazaar for Village).
Edit: Corrected question #7 (removed a Village).
Edit: Added an "unlimited draw pile" rule, at guided's suggestion.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:26:53 am by rinkworks »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 02:24:36 pm »
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Here's a couple:

1. +$2, +1 buy. Woodcutter.
10. Flip your draw pile and gain 4 Silvers. Trusty Steed can do this.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 02:39:06 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 02:31:56 pm »
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1. +$2, +1 buy. Woodcutter.

I screwed this one up, although this answer is equally incorrect as mine because Bazaar + Herbalist leaves you with one action, whereas playing a Woodcutter leaves you with zero.  In my intended solution, you were supposed to have two actions left.  I edited my original question to fix that.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 02:40:53 pm by rinkworks »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 02:38:42 pm »
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OK, I can add spoiler tags.

If you mean for the action counts to be correct, based on spending some time thinking about these I suspect you have made numerous errors.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 02:40:44 pm »
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If you mean for the action counts to be correct, based on spending some time thinking about these I suspect you have made numerous errors.

It's definitely possible, but I just went through them again, and I don't see any more problems.  Some of them are tricky, though, and depend on unusual circumstances.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 02:49:43 pm »
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It's definitely possible, but I just went through them again, and I don't see any more problems.  Some of them are tricky, though, and depend on unusual circumstances.
If I draw a Treasure card, are you counting that treasure card's effects? Like if I draw a Copper do you count that as +$1? The wording of your puzzle would suggest not, but I'm not seeing any other way to do some of these.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 02:54:53 pm »
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It's definitely possible, but I just went through them again, and I don't see any more problems.  Some of them are tricky, though, and depend on unusual circumstances.
If I draw a Treasure card, are you counting that treasure card's effects? Like if I draw a Copper do you count that as +$1? The wording of your puzzle would suggest not, but I'm not seeing any other way to do some of these.

No, earned coins all have to come from played action cards.  For example, in the correct answer to #10 you gave, the +$2 option on Trusty Steed had to have been chosen, because Chancellor also gives +$2 -- but no treasure cards that may or may not be in your hand at various times come into play in that way.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 02:58:50 pm »
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When you say unusual circumstances, well, OK, I'm going to take full advantage :P

1. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy. Festival.

2. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy, +2 cards. I have a strong suspicion you've made one or more errors here.

3. +2 actions, +$1. Bazaar with an empty deck, equivalent to NV/Peddler, choosing to pick up the empty NV mat.

4. Silver gained in hand, final 5-card hand (minus anything trashed on chapel), no actions remaining. Assuming you trashed nothing on Chapel, this is equivalent to Explorer. Assuming you used Chapel to trash a single Copper, it's equivalent to Mine (trashing a Copper for a Silver).

5. Trusty Steed for +2 cards +2 actions, Workshop to gain a Great Hall or Island. Final 5-card hand with 1 action remaining. Equivalent to Ironworks gaining a Great Hall or Island.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 03:02:20 pm »
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2. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy, +2 cards. I have a strong suspicion you've made one or more errors here.
You've made an error; it isn't +2 actions or +2 cards (net), but rather one of each. Thus it's a Grand Market

guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 03:05:02 pm »
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2. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy, +2 cards. I have a strong suspicion you've made one or more errors here.
You've made an error; it isn't +2 actions or +2 cards (net), but rather one of each. Thus it's a Grand Market
Grand Market doesn't net any actions or cards ;) I'm not using "net" notation there, since I'm trying to match it up with card effects, which are not written on the cards in "net" notation.

edit: Adding spoiler tag since I've suspected from the beginning that's supposed to be the answer to that problem, even if it's broken at the moment.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 03:05:54 pm »
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Oh right, duh.

guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 03:09:20 pm »
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My other suspicion for that one is that maybe it's supposed to be a powered-up City, but it gains one too many cards and one too many coins.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 03:10:23 pm »
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1. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy. Festival

Correct!

Quote
2. +2 actions, +$2, +1 buy, +2 cards. I have a strong suspicion you've made one or more errors here.

Dang it.  Yes.  I'm so sorry.  Swap the Bazaar out for a Village, and the question is as I wanted it.  I'll edit.  I guess I'm not inspiring a lot of confidence here.

Quote
3. +2 actions, +$1. Bazaar with an empty deck, equivalent to NV/Peddler with an empty deck, draw pile, and NV mat.

Correct, although not the solution I was thinking of.  I had Fishing Village, with the next-turn effect ignored, as per the rules; but your solution is possibly more aesthetically pleasing.

Quote
4. Silver gained in hand, final 5-card hand (minus anything trashed on chapel), no actions remaining. Assuming you trashed nothing on Chapel, this is equivalent to Explorer. Assuming you used Chapel to trash a single Copper, it's equivalent to Mine (trashing a Copper for a Silver).

Correct, and again a different solution than I had.  I suspected some of these would have multiple solutions, although I didn't think this would be one of them.  A hint for my solution:  I used Chapel to trash two cards.

Quote
5. Trusty Steed for +2 cards +2 actions, Workshop to gain a Great Hall or Island. Final 5-card hand with 1 action remaining. Equivalent to Ironworks gaining a Great Hall or Island.

Exactly the solution I had.  Great job!
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 03:11:47 pm »
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Here's a simple-looking one that I think is kind of fun:

11. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Smithy


edit: Assume an unlimited number of cards in the deck available to draw for this and any other puzzles I come up with. No empty-deck solutions.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:25:09 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 03:15:13 pm »
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My other suspicion for that one is that maybe it's supposed to be a powered-up City, but it gains one too many cards and one too many coins.

Yes.  The "one too many coins" has been corrected, but the number of cards was correct.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 03:17:05 pm »
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Dang it.  Yes.  I'm so sorry.  Swap the Bazaar out for a Village, and the question is as I wanted it.  I'll edit.  I guess I'm not inspiring a lot of confidence here.
OK, now that I remember how the card actually works (forgive the wrong post above):

2. Fully-powered City.

Also: Are you sure on #6? If it's supposed to be Menagerie, well, those Labs draw too many cards. I have an answer but it's very much in the trivial-est possible "unusual circumstance" category:

6. Playing these with only 4 cards left to draw is the same as playing a single Lab with an empty deck.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:24:34 pm by guided »
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Superdad

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 03:18:37 pm »
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1. Village + Bazaar + Herbalist = ?
2. Bazaar + Market + Laboratory = ?
3. Native Village + Peddler = ?
4. Laboratory + Village + Chapel + Explorer = ?
5. Trusty Steed + Workshop = ?
6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
7. Village + Village + Spy + Moat + Tournament = ?
8. Laboratory + Village + Village + Steward + Pawn = ?
9. Native Village + Native Village + Native Village + Mine + Mine + Mine + Mine = ?
10. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Village + Village + Village + Village + Bureaucrat + Bureaucrat + Explorer + Explorer + Cellar + Cellar + Chancellor = ?


2. Bazaar + Market + Laboratory = ?

After playing all three you are left with (net):  $2/2 action/1 buy and a 5 card hand. I suspect you wanted this to match Grand Market, but it is 1 action too heavy? This would be grand market if the Bazaar was a peddler instead.


3. Native Village + Peddler = ?

After playing both you are left with 2 actions, $1 and -1 card. So I assume you are looking for fishing village?


6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
This is essentially Minion if you have only minion in your hand. Three labs functions like +4 card, +1 action, which is what minion's cycle with only minion remaining in your hand does.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:22:25 pm by Superdad »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 03:22:04 pm »
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Here's a simple-looking one that I think is kind of fun:

11. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory + Smithy

Heh -- the first thing I thought of was Donald's early test-version of Tournament, which, rather than awarding Prizes, could let you draw up to 6 cards.  But actually not even that is enough.

My second thought was Apprentice, but your question doesn't trash anything.

So I'm going to have to say Moneylender, with no Copper in hand.  There are no cards to draw.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 03:23:23 pm »
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You might add a caveat to these: assume an unlimited number of cards available to draw. Empty-deck solutions can be trivial when it comes to drawing cards. So make that assumption for my #11 above, and any others I might come up with.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 03:24:52 pm »
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guided, you were right.  I found an action-count problem in #7 as well (which I've fixed).

Again, my apologies to all.  I double-checked these before I posted, checked them again after the first mistake was found, and I still missed it.  I like this puzzle idea, but I guess I underestimated how niggling getting the counts right is.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2011, 03:25:55 pm »
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11. Library where you didn't set aside any actions

rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2011, 03:29:14 pm »
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You might add a caveat to these: assume an unlimited number of cards available to draw. Empty-deck solutions can be trivial when it comes to drawing cards. So make that assumption for my #11 above, and any others I might come up with.

Hrm.  How about Scrying Pool, then, with the draw pile having several action cards in a row to pull in.  Wait, no, Scrying Pool leaves you with an action left.  Um.  Ok, how about Library, when you start off with Laboratory as the only card in your hand?  That breaks one of the rules I set, but if that was your intended answer, it's a great enough puzzle to consider scrapping that rule for.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2011, 03:30:44 pm »
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6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
This is essentially Minion if you have only minion in your hand. Three labs functions like +4 card, +1 action, which is what minion's cycle with only minion remaining in your hand does.

That works except that one of the rules I had said that you start with five cards in your hand.  I think perhaps that rule is worth scrapping, though.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2011, 03:41:52 pm »
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You might add a caveat to these: assume an unlimited number of cards available to draw. Empty-deck solutions can be trivial when it comes to drawing cards. So make that assumption for my #11 above, and any others I might come up with.

Hrm.  How about Scrying Pool, then, with the draw pile having several action cards in a row to pull in.  Wait, no, Scrying Pool leaves you with an action left.  Um.  Ok, how about Library, when you start off with Laboratory as the only card in your hand?  That breaks one of the rules I set, but if that was your intended answer, it's a great enough puzzle to consider scrapping that rule for.
I intended to keep the 5-card hand rule. Glad you've noticed that my puzzle leaves you with no actions left ;) You did give me an idea though: Scrying Pool works for your #6.
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def

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2011, 03:44:27 pm »
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This puzzle could be nice to teach beginners how many, many action cards are not necessarily better than a single one.

4. Trading Post
7. Village when your oppponent has no Province in your hand - this was for the first version.
8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:50:23 pm by def »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2011, 03:46:54 pm »
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You could make basically all of these with only throne room, king's court, and pawn.

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2011, 03:48:40 pm »
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4: Trading post (chapel trashed only 2) 7: Scrying pool(draws no extra action cards, leaving 5 in hand; assuming tournament is countered by opposing province)
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Auroch

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2011, 03:51:31 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2011, 03:53:54 pm »
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You did give me an idea though: Scrying Pool works for your #6.

Ha -- indeed it does.  It wasn't the answer for #6 that I was thinking of, but it's perfectly valid.

For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2011, 03:59:02 pm »
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Another couple of simple-looking ones that I think are pretty hard:

12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory (oops, this one was impossible by the method I had in mind)
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory


For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
Clever! But you've played 3 action cards here, not 1. If we allowed solutions like that, we'd have to allow things like Throne Room too, and that would really ruin the puzzles I think.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 04:56:42 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2011, 04:00:35 pm »
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This puzzle could be nice to teach beginners how many, many action cards are not necessarily better than a single one.
4. Trading Post
7. Village when your oppponent has no Province in your hand - this was for the first version.
8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

4 is right.  7 was right until I corrected the puzzle, but you have the gist of what I was doing with the Tournament.  I'm sure you can come up with a similar answer that fits my change.  But for bonus points, come up with a solution that replicates what Spy did.  Actually, simply "Spy" is a valid answer, but that's no fun.

For 8, unless I counted wrong (which may well be) I think your solution falls one action short of being a level 3 City.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2011, 04:04:13 pm »
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8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

Your action counts don't add up on this one.

7. A boring answer you probably weren't looking for: Caravan. This is assuming you don't reveal a Province, but an opponent does. Spy has no "primary effects" in this sequence as you define "primary effects", so I'm not sure why it's there.

8. Grand Market. Steward for +$2, Pawn for +1 buy, +1 card.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2011, 04:05:15 pm »
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4: Trading post (chapel trashed only 2) 7: Scrying pool(draws no extra action cards, leaving 5 in hand; assuming tournament is countered by opposing province)

Your answers (for #4 and #7) are correct.  The one for #7 is not what I had, though.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2011, 04:07:07 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2011, 04:12:39 pm »
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8. Steward for cards and Pawn for money and buy makes it a third level city

Your action counts don't add up on this one.

7. A boring answer you probably weren't looking for: Caravan. This is assuming you don't reveal a Province, but an opponent does. Spy has no "primary effects" in this sequence as you define "primary effects", so I'm not sure why it's there.

8. Grand Market. Steward for +$2, Pawn for +1 buy, +1 card.

Right on #8.  Also probably right on #7, and you could make a case for Great Hall and a non-activated Menagerie, too, but to match the effects more closely, come up with a solution that conveys knowledge about the top card.  Unfortunately this was probably not a very good puzzle, as even with that subtlety, there are still four answers I know of, two of which are also boring.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2011, 04:24:53 pm »
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For your #11, is it cheating to answer Golem, which happens to find a Smithy and an Envoy?  Because I really don't see how to draw that many cards any other way.
Clever! But you've played 3 action cards here, not 1. If we allowed solutions like that, we'd have to allow things like Throne Room too, and that would really ruin the puzzles I think.

I agree, so I'm glad that's not it.  The only reason I thought it might not be cheating is that you're still only playing one action card out of your hand and stopping immediately after fully resolving that one card.

I'm really stumped, though.  4 Labs + Smithy with an unlimited draw pile results in an 11-card hand, a net of +7 cards.  We've eliminated Scrying Pool, Apprentice, and Library.  We can't use Throne Room or King's Court.  I thought of an optimal Tribute, but that's only +4 at best.  Native Village, pulling tons of cards off the mat, would leave you with too many actions.  Erm.  Oh, maybe this works:  Counting House.  Ordinarily I'd say pulling cards from your discard pile is different from drawing them from your deck, but if we assert that the deck is currently empty and the discard only has 7 Coppers in it (or has at least 7 Coppers that shuffle to the top), then Counting House would be exactly equivalent.  Wow, that puzzle is excellent.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2011, 04:35:31 pm »
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12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory

13. Tribute, revealing Island and Nobles.

No idea about 12.  The only even remotely possible solution I see is to use the same card differently, but I can't make it come out right due to the lack of an Action-Treasure card.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 04:50:50 pm by rinkworks »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2011, 04:56:12 pm »
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12. Bazaar + Bazaar + Village + Laboratory
13. Village + Village + Village + Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory

13. Tribute, revealing Island and Nobles.

No idea about 12.  The only even remotely possible solution I see is to use the same card differently, but I can't make it come out right due to the lack of an Action-Treasure card.
Ha! My turn to be embarrassed. Yes, #12 requires a nonexistent Action/Treasure card for Tribute. Oops.
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2011, 04:57:47 pm »
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Counting House.
Yep! ;D

I would also consider pulling cards from the discard different from drawing them, but as you note this is no barrier to a complete solution.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2011, 06:25:18 pm »
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6. Apothecary, when three of the cards on your deck are coppers or potions?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 06:31:04 pm by Glooble »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2011, 06:52:15 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.
Just change the answer to Tactician. Done. I thought of that forever ago, but I thought it was wrong because for some stupid reason I got it stuck in my head that card has +1 Action on it even though it doesn't.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 07:27:29 pm »
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Glooble: Another right answer for #6, and also not the one I was thinking of.  Very close, though.
guided: Correct, and what I had in mind.

We now have solutions for all 10 of my puzzles, although the particular solutions I had for #6 and #7 have not been guessed yet.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 07:33:11 pm »
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A simple one that isn't too difficult but requires a little outside-the-box thinking:

14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:05:49 pm by guided »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 08:05:33 pm »
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I've deleted a bunch of stuff above from my previous broken #15 problem. Here's a different one! Still very tricky I think, though there might be trivial alternate solutions I haven't thought of.

15. Village + Farming Village + Ironworks + Upgrade + Upgrade + Smithy

edit: For the purposes of this puzzle, assume no supply piles are empty.


Small hint: This is OK by the lights of rinkworks's official solutions, but if you haven't read those solutions there are some judgment calls here about what constitutes a "primary effect". Only the final contents of your hand, draw pile, and discard pile matter here (in addition to your accumulated stock of coin and actions). This is in keeping with the spirit of not counting things like next-turn Duration effects and attack effects against other players.

Larger but still fairly small hint: You could technically replace Farming Village with Village by the rules, but then the net effects wouldn't match as nicely :) So for my intended solution Farming Village actually does have a different effect than Village.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:10:34 pm by guided »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 08:19:13 pm »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.

Quote
15. Laboratory + Hamlet + Bazaar + Black Market + Ironworks

You posted a retraction of this puzzle, but I'd already worked it out far enough to suspect something was wrong.  If my idea was what you were going for, you can fix the puzzle merely by adding Peddler.

If adding Peddler does NOT fix it, then DON'T READ WHAT I WROTE BELOW.  Instead, consider this a new puzzle for you:

Laboratory + Peddler + Hamlet + Bazaar + Black Market + Ironworks = ?

In any case, here is my thought process on the original puzzle (which didn't have Peddler).  I typed it as I was working out, so it's an accurate reflection of the approach I took:

No treasures are played with the Black Market, so that's a clue.  Since no other card can buy stuff from the Black Market, nothing could have been purchased unless "Black Market" is the answer.  But it can't be, because Bazaar and Ironworks produce other effects that Black Market alone can't replicate.  So, to make a short story long, the Black Market is only there for the +$2 coins.  Add in Laboratory and Bazaar, and we have 5 cards in hand, 1 action, and +$3.  This is starting to smell like Horse Traders, but it's not, because it won't gain a card like Ironworks does.  So what provides at least +$3 and gains a card costing up to 4?  Baron!  With that hypothesis in mind, we can now work backwards from it.  Ironworks gains the Estate; since Estate is a victory card, we draw a card.  So we're still at a 5 card hand, and have 0 actions.  We still need to get rid of a card, and we're short a buy and a coin.  That tells us how we should play Hamlet.  Discard a single card, not for the action but for the buy.  Now everything is right, except we're only up $3, whereas Baron supplies $4.  Close, but no cigar.  Dare I hope that there's an error in the question?  If not, and Baron isn't correct, then a new puzzle with the same cards plus Peddler would be a good one.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:22:11 pm by rinkworks »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2011, 08:24:48 pm »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.
King's Court says you may reveal a card. It doesn't say you may play a revealed card less than 3 times. Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players. Jester doesn't work because it has +$2.

I was going to add an "unlimited supply piles" caveat to #14, until I realized that the game would be over already if there were fewer than 3 cards available to gain, since there are at least 5 piles to gain from (Workshop, Estate, Silver, Copper, Curse).

As for my retracted puzzle, the reason I finally retracted it was that it required Treasure cards to be played on Black Market, and that's a no-no under the rules.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 08:30:31 pm by guided »
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 08:34:54 pm »
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King's Court says you may reveal a card. It doesn't say you may play a revealed card less than 3 times. Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players. Jester doesn't work because it has +$2.

Aargh!  I guess I've been staring at these cards too long.  You're right, I was using King's Court very wrongly.  And despite thinking of the answer, I somehow thought the resulting hand-size wouldn't turn out right.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 10:48:40 pm »
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6. Would it be Scout, then? Assuming four victory cards on the deck.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 10:53:49 pm »
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6. Would it be Scout, then? Assuming four victory cards on the deck.

Right!  I mean, you had it right before, too.  But now you have it right the same way I did.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 05:13:34 am »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.

Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this would be just KC/Workshop (w/o the Lab), wouldn't it...?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2011, 05:36:36 am »
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14. Laboratory + King's Court/Workshop

My first thought was that there were no cards available for Workshop to gain.  But that would mean Coppers, Silvers, Estates, Curses, and Workshops were gone, at which point the game would be long over.  Then I figured this had to be an attack card, like Thief or Jester, as I saw no other way to gain three cards.  But then I remembered the "You may..." clause on King's Court.  The Workshop is only played once.  Ironworks, gaining an Estate, should do the trick.  Another excellent puzzle.

Anyway, you already mentioned the answer: Thief, gaining 3 Silvers and/or Coppers from 3 other players.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this would be just KC/Workshop (w/o the Lab), wouldn't it...?


KC/Workshop leaves you with 3 cards in hand. Thief leaves you with 4. The Lab compensates for this.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 07:12:31 am »
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Except that KC/Workshop takes up 2 cards from your hand, leaving you with only 3 left. Playing the lab bumps it back up to 4, same as if you just played thief
Edit: forgot that there could be a next page and so naturally... ninja'd

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2011, 08:29:42 am »
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6. Laboratory + Laboratory + Laboratory = ?
This is essentially Minion if you have only minion in your hand. Three labs functions like +4 card, +1 action, which is what minion's cycle with only minion remaining in your hand does.

That works except that one of the rules I had said that you start with five cards in your hand.  I think perhaps that rule is worth scrapping, though.

Indeed. If you must start with 5 cards, you could always have haven'd 4 times prior.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2011, 08:46:11 am »
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No durations can have been played the previous turn, either.  In any case, I'm reconsidering reconsidering the five-card hand rule.  It seems to be an important constraint to guard against otherwise too-common ways to circumvent card count problems, like guided's very good unlimited-draw-pile rule.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:48:13 am by rinkworks »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2011, 08:47:12 am »
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Apart from Haven + Haven + Haven + Haven + Minion is not one card, and in fact is more cards than the puzzle is offering in the first place.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2011, 10:19:44 am »
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Well, I'm pleased to see no trivial alternate solutions to #15 yet :) I'll let it go another day and then offer a bigger hint.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2011, 11:24:06 am »
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So, my solution to #7:

As has been pointed out, this one essentially adds up to a cantrip.  Great Hall, for example, is arguably a correct solution.  But the inclusion of Spy in the puzzle means we ought to be able to come up with a more aesthetically pleasing solution if we can take its behavior into account.  Either we find a single card that, besides being a cantrip, allows us to discard the top card of the deck, OR a cantrip that allows us to know what the top card of the deck is.

Unfortunately, "Spy" itself is a valid answer, which makes this a subpar puzzle.  But it at least has two more interesting answers.  My original answer was Pearl Diver, in a case where the deck consists of two cards.  Playing Pearl Diver lets you draw the first one and peek at the second.  Later, I thought of a second solution:  Wishing Well, with a deck of any size.  It first replaces itself in your hand.  Then you guess the next card incorrectly.  It stays on the deck, but now you know what it is.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 11:27:20 am by rinkworks »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2011, 12:15:43 pm »
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By the way, I'm thinking the "unlimited deck" rule is too restrictive. It would be better to just say that you're never allowed to attempt to draw from an empty deck. This should be enough to avoid trivial empty-deck solutions while allowing for some other interesting effects.

So for example, even if you have an empty draw and discard pile, you could still play Cellar. You would discard some cards and then draw exactly those cards immediately. The key point is that you never try to draw a card and find no cards to draw.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 12:18:34 pm by guided »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2011, 01:57:32 pm »
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15. Village + Farming Village + Ironworks + Upgrade + Upgrade + Smithy

This is a toughie.

Village + Farming Village results in 5 cards, 3 actions.  Ironworks, gaining something.  Now you have 4 cards, 2 actions (plus whatever Ironworks gave you, but we'll come back to that).  Play two Upgrades on two Coppers, trashing them.  Since the Upgrades are cantrips, you still have 4 cards, 2 actions.  Playing Smithy gets you to 6 cards, 1 action.  That's a Laboratory, except that you've just trashed two Coppers and gained something else.  So that can't be it.  Trading Post comes to mind, but that accounts ONLY for the trashings and gainings, nothing else.

Let's back up to the Upgrades.  I made a decision to trash cards, rather than actually upgrade them, because otherwise, with the Ironworks, we'd be gaining THREE cards, and that clearly can't be the case unless the answer is a stealing attack.  But neither Thief nor Jester fit, so forget that.  But what if the trashings and gainings cancel each other out?  Then we'd have a net zero change to our cards, so maybe it would work out.  It does change the state of the tableau, but this fits with the hints guided gave us.

Proceeding on that basis, we can determine that we must trash exactly two cards (to the Upgrades), which means that the Upgrades and Ironworks combined must gain two cards.  So far so good.  The only way this configuration works is if the Ironworks gives us Card A, then Upgrade #1 turns it into Card B, then Upgrade #2 trashes it.  But wait -- in order for the card gained by Ironworks to be available to the Upgrades, it has to be drawn back into the hand somehow.  That implies that, at the time the first Upgrade is played, there is only one card to draw from.  Alas, that is impossible, because otherwise the Smithy at the end would fail, breaking the "no failed draws" rule.

But!  What if there's a Watchtower in hand, which remains unplayed through the whole sequence?  Sneaky.

So Watchtower puts the card gained by Ironworks on top, and the first Upgrade draws it.  It changes it into something else, and Watchtower butts in a second time to top-deck it.  The second Upgrade draws it and trashes it.

So which plusses do we need from Ironworks?  To recap:  Village + Farming Village = 5 cards, 3 actions.  + Ironworks + Upgrade + Upgrade = 4 cards, 2 actions (plus whatever Ironworks gave us).  Smithy brings us to 6 cards, 1 action.  Again, that's a simple Laboratory, but that still can't be the answer, because Ironworks has to have given us something.

Or is that true?  If we gained a Curse via Ironworks, we'd get no bonus.  But that doesn't work, because Ironworks needs to give us something that the first Upgrade can give us something back for.  A Curse would simply be trashed, leaving nothing for the second Upgrade to feed on.

Well, what other combination of Ironworks bonuses will work?  If we gained an Action card, we'd end on +2 Cards, +2 Actions.  That's a Level 2 City or a Trusty Steed.  Suppose Ironworks gained a Laboratory, the first Upgrade turned it into a Goons, and the second Upgrade trashed the Goons.  That works!

Offhand, I can't think of any other combination of Ironworks bonuses that work here, but I suppose I might be missing something.


Whew.  I hope I didn't miscalculate anywhere.

Edit:  I did.  Laboratory is too expensive for Ironworks to gain.  Ok, suppose the Ironworks gains a Hamlet, Upgrade turns it into a Woodcutter, and the second Upgrade trashes the Woodcutter.  We know, however, that at least one 4-cost card, Ironworks, is on the tableau, so it will have to be the case that its supply pile has run out.

Edit #2:  Actually, we know there are THREE 4-cost cards out:  Farming Village, Ironworks, and Smithy.  They can't all be out.  Unless this is a 5-person game, which I think it must be.  An alternative is to upgrade from 3->4->5, which I think only requires that the Duchy and Upgrade supply piles have been depleted.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 02:02:49 pm by rinkworks »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2011, 02:41:34 pm »
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Upgrade is a cantrip, but when you play it, you trash a card out of your hand.  This reduces your hand size by 1.  You should be ending up with 4 cards and 1 action, not 6.  Maybe that helps your analysis.

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2011, 03:02:36 pm »
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Oh, right.

All right, if we wind up with 4 cards, 1 action, plus whatever Ironworks gives us, I suppose we have a wider selection of choices.  In that case, if Ironworks gets us an action card, we're up +2 Actions only, which is a Native Village (taking zero cards off the mat).

Ironworks can't take an Estate except in a 5+ player game (because we need all the 4's to be out), but in that case we'd have 5 cards, 1 action, in which case the answer could be a Great Hall, an inactive Menagerie, a Caravan, and probably other things as well.

I think the only other Victory card that works is Great Hall, which puts us at 5 cards, 2 actions.  That's a Village -- Walled, Worker's, Mining, or vanilla.

For Treasure cards, Ironworks could snag us a Silver or a Loan; I don't think any others work.  In that case, we're at 4 cards, 1 action, and 1 coin.  Maybe I'm blanking, but I don't think any single card gives us that.  Herbalist is close, but it leaves a +Buy unaccounted for.

Anyway, those are my new answers:  any of several plain cantrips and Villages.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2011, 03:50:43 pm »
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I think you've got something that works there... but for the purposes of this puzzle, you can assume no supply piles are empty at any point during the solution.

You actually have the tricksiest bit worked out already: an unplayed Watchtower
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:08:55 pm by guided »
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2011, 04:34:50 pm »
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Well, with only 1 upgrade instead of 2, I think it would be an excellent fit for University.  Ironworks for an action up to 4 cost and top deck with the Watchtower, then play upgrade to turn it into a 5 cost.  I suppose the other upgrade could be used on a copper just to reduce the hand size by one, but that is kind of another primary effect.  That also doesn't account for the Farming Village effect at all.

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2011, 04:51:23 pm »
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Well, with only 1 upgrade instead of 2, I think it would be an excellent fit for University.  Ironworks for an action up to 4 cost and top deck with the Watchtower, then play upgrade to turn it into a 5 cost.  I suppose the other upgrade could be used on a copper just to reduce the hand size by one, but that is kind of another primary effect.  That also doesn't account for the Farming Village effect at all.
Trashing a Copper definitely counts as an effect since it changes the contents of your deck. But University still works just fine: For example you could gain a Village with Ironworks, then Upgrade it to an Ironworks, then Upgrade that to an Upgrade. So that's one solution, though not the one I had in mind (which has Farming Village do something different from Village).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:53:38 pm by guided »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2011, 04:59:51 pm »
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I've thought of another unexpected #15 solution: Ironworks gains an Estate, which is Upgraded twice to an Island. Equivalent to playing a single Ironworks, gaining an Island. But this also does not account for Farming Village :)


To be sure, even if you two haven't found my original solution yet, finding the Watchtower angle and by extension the entirely non-trivial University solution is impressive.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 05:04:33 pm by guided »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2011, 05:39:08 pm »
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Well, I suppose you could gain a $3 action card with Ironworks to make University work, but I don't like that answer as much because the sequence could get you up to a $6 card if you started with a $4.  I think University would fit much better removing an Upgrade and changing the Farming Village to a Native Village, drawing no cards from the mat.

I don't know where to go on the original problem from here.  I can't think of any other cards that would cycle VP/Curse cards.   I also assume at this point that we are Upgrading the Ironworks'ed card twice getting us any card that costs up to $6.  Something like gaining a Gold comes to mind, but that still isn't making any sense to me.


I'll try my hand at creating one of these puzzles.  It is probably pretty easy.

16. Upgrade + Upgrade + Saboteur
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 05:43:38 pm by Deadlock39 »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2011, 05:45:12 pm »
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Remake
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2011, 05:47:10 pm »
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Well, I suppose you could gain a $3 action card with Ironworks to make University work, but I don't like that answer as much because the sequence could get you up to a $6 card if you started with a $4.
Man, who cares? The object of these puzzles is not to find the best possible thing you could do with the sequence of cards played and then match that to some single card. Certainly that's not the model followed by a lot of the solutions to date.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2011, 05:49:32 pm »
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It was as easy as I expected I see.   I got the idea from your puzzle, so I figured I might as well post it.

Man, who cares? The object of these puzzles is not to find the best possible thing you could do with the sequence of cards played and then match that to some single card. Certainly that's not the model followed by a lot of the solutions to date.

You are right.  I guess I was just trying to think of what you would make the puzzle if you were actually trying to get people to guess University.  It doesn't need to be optimal, but it should at least be as close as you can get I think.

Deadlock39

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2011, 06:01:20 pm »
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I just realized this could be kind of close to Lookout, but there is too much to account for.  The Farming Village discards a card.  The deduced Watchtower can top deck a card, and we can trash a card.  It doesn't really work out at all, but it is kind of close.  We end up with one too many actions, cards or coins from Ironworks no matter what.

guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2011, 06:19:06 pm »
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Hint for Deadlock39 following on his disappointment with the University solution: My solution works with slight modifications if you remove one of the Upgrades, replace Smithy with Moat, and presume the inclusion of another as-of-yet unmentioned Supply pile that is not necessary for my original solution. I included a second Upgrade mainly because it hugely reduces the possibility of trivial solutions, but also because it doesn't require that other Supply pile.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 06:21:08 pm by guided »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2011, 06:25:31 pm »
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I think I just figured this out, so I am going to post my answer here without reading your hint.  I am editing this right now to add my answer.

Answer:
Tournament.

The Farming Village reveals and discards a Province.
Ironworks for a Silver, gaining $1, and top decking it with Watchtower.
Upgrade, drawing Silver, gaining a $4 card (we could say Ironworks), top decking it with Watchtower.
Upgrade, drawing Ironworks, gaining a Duchy, top decking it with Watchtower.
Draw three cards with Smithy to finish with 4 cards (including the Duchy you gained), 1 action and $1, and a discarded Province.

This matches the state of playing Tournament, getting +1 action, discarding a Province (opponent does not reveal one), gaining a Duchy on the deck, and then gaining +1 card +$1.


Edit after reading the most recent hint:
The other supply pile in your most recent hint would have to be Quarry or Talisman to replace the Silver.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 06:38:12 pm by Deadlock39 »
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guided

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2011, 06:38:55 pm »
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Exactly the solution I had in mind!  ;D

Of note, you've discarded a Province and finished with the gained Duchy in hand. Bravo.


Edit after reading the most recent hint:
The other supply pile in your most recent hint would have to be Quarry or Talisman to replace the Silver.
Yyyyyyyyyyyyyep.
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2011, 07:00:01 pm »
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Wow.  That is fantastic.  I'm going to take credit for my solution anyhow, but you're right -- there's no question that that solution is elegant beyond compare.  Well done.
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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2011, 03:01:09 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.

So have 4 cards on the NV mat to start?
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rinkworks

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Re: Action Card Equations
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2011, 03:04:28 pm »
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9. Chapel. Start with a hand of 3 NV 2 Mine, Put 2 Mine onto the NV mat, pick them up, then play them. You just Chapeled 0 cards.

You're on the right track, having solved the hardest part of the puzzle, but there's one problem:  If you'd started with 5 cards and played a Chapel to trash 0, you'd be left with four cards in hand.  With your solution, you're left with 0 cards in hand, so there's still a discrepancy there.  You have everything right about how the Native Villages and Mines are played, however.

So have 4 cards on the NV mat to start?

Then it still wouldn't be the same as playing Chapel, because Chapel won't have removed those 4 cards off the NV mat.
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