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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor  (Read 2356 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« on: August 22, 2012, 04:53:49 pm »
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Investor (3)
Action
+2 Cards
If you discard 2 or more cards from your hand during this turn's Clean-up phase: +1 VP.



  • Sometimes, holding back from big spending rakes bigger profits in the end.
  • I'm quite intrigued by the idea of buying smaller items. This is one of the ideas I had that might influence you to hold back a Copper or two. It also works well with small Victory cards and other terminal Actions.
  • I considered costing this at 2, and that could still be correct. Compared to Monument, this can be a bit weak.
  • You discard cards from your hand at the same time you discard cards from play. Someone could suggest that the wording doesn't work, but its very intuitive like this.

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 05:02:34 pm »
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It's a really cool idea, but I'm afraid people wouldn't use it for it's intended purpose. They'll just discard 2 Victory cards.

You want them to use it to discard Treasures, right? Not Victory cards and Unused Actions? I'd cost it at 2 and change it to "if you discard 2 or more Treasure cards from your hand during this turn's Clean-up phase: +1 VP.

Though that might make it to weak.
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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 05:21:58 pm »
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It's a really cool idea, but I'm afraid people wouldn't use it for it's intended purpose. They'll just discard 2 Victory cards.

You want them to use it to discard Treasures, right? Not Victory cards and Unused Actions? I'd cost it at 2 and change it to "if you discard 2 or more Treasure cards from your hand during this turn's Clean-up phase: +1 VP.

Though that might make it to weak.
that's not the intent I got from it. I think it's more supposed to be a consolation prize if you're stuck with too many victory cards or actions. or an extra boost for alt VP strategies like Silk Road and Garden that just cram themselves full of unusable cards.

the only problem I see is the whole "you can just spam these for victory points without advancing the end game" thing, since with trashing you can get down to where your deck is basically just villages and this and chain them together forever and net yourself a bunch of points without buying anything. monument gets away with it because the +$ encourages you to buy stuff, whereas with this once you have a good amount of this and villages the +cards actually encourages you not to buy stuff as it'll get in the way of your chaining. I don't know that that's an effective or fast enough strategy to be worth worrying about but I can't help but feel it might be. although it's probably too slow without a workshop or ironworks on the board so I guess having that around does encourage you to empty piles.  dunno. needs some testing probably.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 05:53:57 pm »
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Hmmm... interesting point. I was obviously using the card draw to aid the ability, but it might actually hinder game progress. I catch that most of the time, but not here. I could change it to requiring an exact discard. That way, you're encouraged to play cards out.

razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 06:26:42 pm »
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Hmmm... interesting point. I was obviously using the card draw to aid the ability, but it might actually hinder game progress. I catch that most of the time, but not here. I could change it to requiring an exact discard. That way, you're encouraged to play cards out.
that'd reduce the problem, but I can still construct a board where this could be blazingly fast. just to demonstrate, I'll use perfect shuffle luck, but it's not necessary.

t1,2: open ironworks(Ir)/chapel(Ch) (doable with either a 4/3 or a 5/2)
t3: CCCCIr, Ir for Investor (In), buy Village (Vi) (7/14)
t4: CEEECh, Ch everything (2/10)
t5: ViInIrCC, Vi to draw C, In to draw CC, Ir for In, buy Vi (2/12) (and you can gain an incidental VP here by holding back two coppers)
t6: CCChViIr, Vi to draw In, In to draw CC, Ir to gain Vi, Ch to trash CCCC (4/9)

now my 9-card deck is 1 chapel, 1 Ironworks, 2 investors, 3 Villages, and two copper. it's now pretty easy to chain everything together, use my ironworks to keep picking up investors and villages, and end every turn discarding a chapel and a copper, playing the other copper to get it out of my hand. and once I run out those two piles there's really no incentive for me to shut off my engine and empty a third pile. I might do it if there's a cantrip available to works for, like wishing well or spy, but otherwise I can just sit back and let myself get as many VP as I got investors, and, if I want, I can skip a turn of points to Chapel those coppers away and just use my chapel and dead works to trigger it.

now, that is with perfect shuffle luck and the best trasher in the game. but even if it takes a couple extra turns to set up, you still wind up in a pretty strong position pretty quickly. I find it hard to believe that, with those cards, you couldn't have your deck down to pretty much just villages and investors in by turn 10, giving you plenty of turns to get up on points. it's not going to happen on most boards (the relative slowness of most other available trashers gets in the way) but it can become a very strong, degenerate game state that amounts to a rush for investors if the stars align. and, since the speed at which you chapel and the location of your ironworks in the shuffle make such a huge difference in how well you do, it's often going to come down to luck. and if I have a 6-investor stack and you have a 4-investor stack, there's really not much you can do to come back besides hope I get stuck on a 5-investor hand a couple turns in a row.

note that a deck that picks up all 8 provinces winds up with 51 points. that's equivalent to 10 turns of getting 5 investors. so if you can get that set up by turn 10, you can expect to beat a province rush if the game goes to turn 20 or so. Smithy Big Money, if it ignores other victory cards, clears the province stack around turn 24. also, with the ironworks you can pick up more investors if he doesn't contest them, leaving you with even more points. and if he does contest them he's bogging his deck down with moats for the occasional incidental VP, which makes things even faster. in total, I think this probably suffers from Fancy Balance Issues, to use WW's term. it's gonna be a moat with some incidental VP in 90% of games it's in, but when the stars align just right and it falls on the board with chapel (maybe steward or ambassador), ironworks (or workshop but it's not as good), and a village variant, you're going to have a stupid-good engine that has no actual need to end the game, and the game will be decided almost exclusively by the investor split.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 07:00:32 pm »
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I suppose the cleanest solution is to take the nifty discard part and change the reward: gain a silver; put Investor on top of your deck; draw more cards during clean-up. I haven't found many good places to put VP gains, apparently. :P

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 07:43:00 am »
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the only problem I see is the whole "you can just spam these for victory points without advancing the end game" thing, since with trashing you can get down to where your deck is basically just villages and this and chain them together forever and net yourself a bunch of points without buying anything. monument gets away with it because the +$ encourages you to buy stuff, whereas with this once you have a good amount of this and villages the +cards actually encourages you not to buy stuff as it'll get in the way of your chaining. I don't know that that's an effective or fast enough strategy to be worth worrying about but I can't help but feel it might be. although it's probably too slow without a workshop or ironworks on the board so I guess having that around does encourage you to empty piles.  dunno. needs some testing probably.

I've heard this argument before, but I think people apply it too automatically without considering the specific card. In this case, Monument is approximately equivalent in how easy it is to setup one of these "get victory points without ending the game" things. Monument doesn't draw cards, but it doesn't require a specific discard of them to get VP either. And how often do you see someone playing tons of Monuments without moving the game forward? Almost never, and I would expect that to be the same here.
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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #32 - Investor
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 12:24:03 pm »
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the only problem I see is the whole "you can just spam these for victory points without advancing the end game" thing, since with trashing you can get down to where your deck is basically just villages and this and chain them together forever and net yourself a bunch of points without buying anything. monument gets away with it because the +$ encourages you to buy stuff, whereas with this once you have a good amount of this and villages the +cards actually encourages you not to buy stuff as it'll get in the way of your chaining. I don't know that that's an effective or fast enough strategy to be worth worrying about but I can't help but feel it might be. although it's probably too slow without a workshop or ironworks on the board so I guess having that around does encourage you to empty piles.  dunno. needs some testing probably.

I've heard this argument before, but I think people apply it too automatically without considering the specific card. In this case, Monument is approximately equivalent in how easy it is to setup one of these "get victory points without ending the game" things. Monument doesn't draw cards, but it doesn't require a specific discard of them to get VP either. And how often do you see someone playing tons of Monuments without moving the game forward? Almost never, and I would expect that to be the same here.
the main problem here, for me, is the draw. because you get two cards, if your deck is fairly trimmed, this can  be all the sifting you need. with just monuments and villages, you will never be able to play more than 5 monuments in a turn, and that'll usually be less in reality, because a) you can hit the chaff left in your deck, which will be at least your trasher, and b) if your villages are distributed unevenly, you won't be able to play all the monuments you have. and the discard isn't really a big deal. you need more villages than investors anyway to smooth out possible unlucky draws, so one you've played as many villages as you need, just hold the rest back, or use your chapel/ironworks if you wind up with an even split.

also, monument gives you $, which encourages you, even if it doesn't force you, to buy more things. this doesn't.
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