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[fprefect]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post, but I have been playing on iso for quite a while and I follow this board thoroughly. As far as I know, most people in this community are highly into board games and not only dominion alone. Also, from what I read in the posts, there seem to be many people with various abilities, being it graphic design skills, maths, programming and much more. Some of these people put a lot of effort into writing extensive articles, designing AIs, fan card extensions and much more. Shortly, I see a lot of talent around and also I see a lot of dedication.

Since I see a lot of precious time of precious people used for iso-goko-discussion, I am trying to propose a more productive possibility to invest your dedication into.

What do you think about starting to design a game by the community, for the community? From scratch. It might have some dominion relation or not... Certainly I am not talking about a rip off to allow for a second iso as an answer to Goko whatever....

My question to the community is: Who would like to have such a game developed? What would you expect? What should it look like? Are there People who would like to contribute?

Here I am giving just some thoughts:

- Might be a game which can be printed out
- Might be implemented for online play (this may be quite far away though)
- Can be playable through this forum asynchronously?
- Uses things everyone has at home or finds in other game boxes...
- Can be the result of a Game Design contest within the forum
...

Any suggestions are appreciated. When the brainstorming is over, we can try to give the thing a direction.

btw. I dont know if this can lead to a very good result... but it can certainly be fun.

[Captain_Frisk]

I have given some thought to this as well and have some scribbles in a notebook.

My thought on the process would be something like:

1. Start with a pure online implementation - but with an overriding design goal that the game be playable in meatspace.
2. Expansions to be added by the community via a methodology similar to rinkworks design challenge - but with ultimate veto by lead designer (presumably myself in this scenario, but I could see a committee).  The cool think about rinkworks' contest is that it opened my eyes to how much reasonable fan content actually does exist.  When i think "fan cards" - I think about all of the stupid cards that I see pop up... where it was clearly not playtested or given more thought than the 5 minutes it took to write the forum post.  Rinkworks' contest has truly resulted in dozens of "playable" cards - well within the tolerance of real world dominion (think about the space that exists between saboteur / counting house and witch / mountebank)
3. Online play results cause tweaks to the product (ie... when someone figures out KC / Goons / Masq - it gets fixed - throne room gets its "May" - etc.) - Have ladders / seasons something to account for the fact that stats will need to be wiped when / if game content changes significantly.
4. When (if?) sufficient online popularity exists - kickstart a physical edition - at which point that content is officially locked in.  Profit to be shared based on contribution via some manner of formula - maybe 50% to the online developers for doing the work, 25% to me for being greedy and awesome (and presumably doing most of the boring work), remaining 25% to content designers... so if we printed 4,000 copies, made a profit of $1 on each one, and it had lets say it consisted of "100 cards", each individual card designer would be entitled to $10.

I've been (slightly) tempted to go the Zombiminion route, given that I love dominion, and my favorite way to play it appears to be going away.  To the best of my knowledge this would be "legal", but any time I explore that line of thought for more than 5 minutes - I feel the need to scrub myself - and wish that I had more original thoughts.

[werothegreat]

+1 for Creativity.
-1 for posting in the wrong sub-forum. We have an "Other Board Games" forum!

P.S. Welcome to Dominion Strategy.

[fprefect]

Ok, can I move it, or is it some moderators task?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'll use my special "contact theory" powers.

[fprefect]

Dear Frisk,

While I appreciate your contribution... I want to highlight the "from scratch" part of my OP. So, what I had in mind was not even necessarily a Deck building game. I am just saying that here in order to steer the discussion a little away from the obvious paths... Also, while an online implementation is possible, making this an aim of the project can be an obstacle for creativity. What if nothing is predetermined and some people form a commitee to do their best to develop a game idea, which is new and then use the powers of the community to get through important steps of development. Or what if we made a design contest for the best new game idea in the next 4 weeks and then the winners build a team to get things rolling?

[Captain_Frisk]

@fprefect - heard loud and clear - was just spouting off my thought process on a similar thought.

The reason why I favor online implementation as a constraint is that it allows significantly more testing than you can realistically accomplish face to face - because of faster play and wider audience. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - and a good article on how constraints can actually help to boost creativity:
http://www.wired.com/culture/design/magazine/17-03/dp_intro/

I think this is a big part of why rinkworks' challenge worked so well.

[fprefect]

Ok Frisk,

You convinced me of this. And the more I am thinking about this, I would like to see a contest. So what would you think if we made up a contest with some limitations in order to guide, but also to stimulate. I hope to have a big discussion about the constraints.

but just as an exemplary list:

- The game must be playable over distance, be it with a special implementation or via email/skype/forum
- It must be possible to play it without computers of any kind
- The game must be possible to be played with two, and at least up to 8 players
- The game - in its basic form- should have not more rules than necessary
- It should follow the easy learn hard to master idea
Ok, those would be quite obvious, but I could think of more funny ones, which could spice it up,like:
- Everything in the game should have a triangle form
- There might me no currency or ressources of any kind
- The game should imply taking pictures
- There should be cards, but no shuffling at all

[Ozle]

- The game must be playable over distance, be it with a special implementation or via email/skype/forum
- It must be possible to play it without computers of any kind
- The game must be possible to be played with two, and at least up to 8 players
- The game - in its basic form- should have not more rules than necessary
- It should follow the easy learn hard to master idea
Ok, those would be quite obvious, but I could think of more funny ones, which could spice it up,like:
- Everything in the game should have a triangle form
- There might me no currency or ressources of any kind
- The game should imply taking pictures
- There should be cards, but no shuffling at all

Each player gets a polaroid camera and takes two pictures of 10 different triangles.
Lay them all face down.
Play pairs

Job done

Whats my cut?

[Captain_Frisk]

- The game must be playable over distance, be it with a special implementation or via email/skype/forum
- It must be possible to play it without computers of any kind
- The game must be possible to be played with two, and at least up to 8 players
- The game - in its basic form- should have not more rules than necessary
- It should follow the easy learn hard to master idea
Ok, those would be quite obvious, but I could think of more funny ones, which could spice it up,like:
- Everything in the game should have a triangle form
- There might me no currency or ressources of any kind
- The game should imply taking pictures
- There should be cards, but no shuffling at all

Each player gets a polaroid camera and takes two pictures of 10 different triangles.
Lay them all face down.
Play pairs

Job done

Whats my cut?

I bet you could get polaroid to sponsor you making a video / viral ad about playing this game - maybe with your children?

[Ozle]

- The game must be playable over distance, be it with a special implementation or via email/skype/forum
- It must be possible to play it without computers of any kind
- The game must be possible to be played with two, and at least up to 8 players
- The game - in its basic form- should have not more rules than necessary
- It should follow the easy learn hard to master idea
Ok, those would be quite obvious, but I could think of more funny ones, which could spice it up,like:
- Everything in the game should have a triangle form
- There might me no currency or ressources of any kind
- The game should imply taking pictures
- There should be cards, but no shuffling at all

Each player gets a polaroid camera and takes two pictures of 10 different triangles.
Lay them all face down.
Play pairs

Job done

Whats my cut?

I bet you could get polaroid to sponsor you making a video / viral ad about playing this game - maybe with your children?

I dunno, getting married and having children is an awful lot of hassle to go through to market a game.

Its not as if you can go and pick some off the street according to that nice police officer that told me off for doing that last time!

[fprefect]

- The game must be playable over distance, be it with a special implementation or via email/skype/forum
- It must be possible to play it without computers of any kind
- The game must be possible to be played with two, and at least up to 8 players
- The game - in its basic form- should have not more rules than necessary
- It should follow the easy learn hard to master idea
Ok, those would be quite obvious, but I could think of more funny ones, which could spice it up,like:
- Everything in the game should have a triangle form
- There might me no currency or ressources of any kind
- The game should imply taking pictures
- There should be cards, but no shuffling at all

Each player gets a polaroid camera and takes two pictures of 10 different triangles.
Lay them all face down.
Play pairs

Job done

Whats my cut?

Good idea, will start to make a goko implementation of it tonight, but only if free implementations of it have to go down once i'm finished

[blueblimp]

Guided by the life of Donald X., this is how I'd go about trying to create a good game:

• Discover a game that opens you to the possibilities of game design. In DXV's case, Magic, in our case, Dominion. See: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1997.0
• Design games for 10+ more years, testing on your friends, without publishing them. (From same article.)
• Hunt down the idea of the game. See: http://opinionatedgamers.com/2012/05/11/the-art-of-design-interviews-to-game-designers-19-donald-x-vaccarino/

[fprefect]

I am very aware, that what I am proposing is maybe not the way how the best games are made. The aim here was not to make a "Supergame". Just think of it as cooking together with friends as opposed to eating out in a 5 star restaurant. The latter is easier, costs more and has professional quality. The first is a product of you and your friends. Well, it was just an idea which sounded fun to me... I wasnt thinking about something publishable. If there is no interest in this idea then be it.

[blueblimp]

Sorry, my post was more harsh than I intended.

[fprefect]

accepted So, you dont think a design competition like this would be a good idea?

[eHalcyon]

FWIW, I don't think an entire game could be created from scratch in a community setting.  A game could be tested and refined, but to have anything cohesive you'll need a much smaller group to create the basic concept.  "Too many cooks spoil the broth" and all.

[rrenaud]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

[Captain_Frisk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

A counter point to this would be - look at the results of the rinkworks design competition - vs. say... the daily Rush_Clasic card.

[WanderingWinder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

A counter point to this would be - look at the results of the rinkworks design competition - vs. say... the daily Rush_Clasic card.

I think there is a big difference between designing specific components like this together, and designing the rules and structures of the game. A big, big difference.

[popsofctown]

FWIW, I don't think an entire game could be created from scratch in a community setting.  A game could be tested and refined, but to have anything cohesive you'll need a much smaller group to create the basic concept.  "Too many cooks spoil the broth" and all.

I do think a secret society of experienced gamers drawn mostly from the f.ds community could make something good. 

The smallness is key for two reasons - too many cooks spoil the broth, and profit motive is not diffused, giving you talented and highly motivated helpers.

I would be interested in something along those lines, but would also be happy to hear a club so elite I can't get in is designing an awesome new game.

[Captain_Frisk]

profit motive is not diffused,

I've always heard that entering game design with this motive is going to result in you having a bad day.  I could meme it if you prefer.

[fprefect]

Actually, for the core idea I had a smaller group in mind. This is why I came up with the contest idea. Think about  this:

- A list of interesting constraints, which will necessarily lead to something new
- A jury made of 3 or 5 people
- 4 weeks for forum members (Also in teams if they want) to come up with original ideas, which are developed enough, that basic playtesting can be done
- A tweaked game is not required to attend, just enough to judge the potential

Once we have the winning idea we can see how we proceed. Also I would like to leave out the question who has the rights on this game at the moment, but we could say that attending ideas have to be creative common license in the end or something.

[popsofctown]

profit motive is not diffused,

I've always heard that entering game design with this motive is going to result in you having a bad day.  I could meme it if you prefer.

You're being pedantic.  No, game design is not a high expected return career.  But a 45$ lottery ticket is not as exciting as a 4,500$ lottery ticket, and being one of five prominent designers of a successful, well known game is more motivating than being one of 500 contributors.