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[Epoch]

Can I get an analysis of this game?  I thought for sure that I had it in the bag when my fishing village/torturer engine started firing, but my opponent eventually returned 9 (!) curses to me with Ambassadors and won the game.

Did I get unlucky or was his the winning strategy?  I felt like I got a little abused by chance towards the mid/late game, but perhaps not enough to make a huge difference.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201108/03/game-20110803-160359-369bc9af.html

[DG]

You walked right into it I'm afraid.

[chwhite]

As is almost always the case, the winning strategy would have been to open Ambassador- in this case, either with Fishing Village or a second Ambassador.  Torturer engines are very strong, but dedicated Ambassador beats just about any other strategy 90 percent of the time, especially when you can pass your junk more than once a turn, as you certainly could here.

[Epoch]

As is almost always the case, the winning strategy would have been to open Ambassador- in this case, either with Fishing Village or a second Ambassador.  Torturer engines are very strong, but dedicated Ambassador beats just about any other strategy 90 percent of the time, especially when you can pass your junk more than once a turn, as you certainly could here.

I don't feel that there was a problem with skipping the Ambassador first turn (EDIT:  Of course, he did too).  His deck wasn't faster than mine -- it only bloomed later.  I clearly should have picked up Ambassador a little earlier than I did, but I figured that if I got a cards/actions engine going, I could pick up an Ambassador, use it virtually every turn, and have the best choice of what junk I wanted to send him.

It didn't happen, obviously.  But why not?  It felt really frustratingly like I'd get either my villages or my card drawers, not together.  Looking through the log, that's not quite true -- it was fairly often the case that I'd get one or two card drawers with some additional actions in my pocket.  What didn't seem to happen was getting an actual chain together -- card drawers into more villages + card drawers.

My deck got increasingly bogged down in the mid-end game, so that becomes more explicable towards the end.  But I'm starting to think that the problem was that I just underestimated how hard it is to put together Village/Torturer without the +1 Card from a normal Village card.  Ordinarily, Fishing Village essentially gives you that (on the next turn), and I think of it as "just better" than Village, but when you're doing a cards/action engine, you want the immediate gratification in order to draw more villages/+cards.

[ackack]

Well, by the end your density of Torturers isn't very high. I don't think the problem is with Fishing Village/Torturer, which I think generally works okay as a draw engine; you just don't have that many Torturers, and Ghost Ship is quite inferior as a drawer.

Ambassador/Fishing Village is probably how I'd start here, and I too would have planned on expanding into Torturers. You'll be a bit slower to ramp up this way, but thinner when you do, which helps. I hadn't thought much about whether Ambassador counterindicates Torturer, but I don't think it does. In general Ambassador + cursing attack seems better than either one alone.

edit: chwhite's point that Fishing Village alone can empower multi-Ambassador turns is pretty good, though. I think Torturers at some point are a great aid toward a maximum Ambassador strategy, but it may be that you should have an Ambassador deck with Torturers rather than a Torturer deck with Ambassadors.

[DG]

But I'm starting to think that the problem was that I just underestimated how hard it is to put together Village/Torturer without the +1 Card from a normal Village card.

Good observation! Draw chains also work better in compact decks with little to clog them up. The exact opposite happened with your deck as the ambassador expanded it with rubbish. As soon as that happens it doesn't matter how many more villages and drawing cards you buy, the draw chain becomes very chancy. Also, as soon as you lose the size war it's almost impossible to get the deck back under control since you cycle any remedial cards so slowly.

[rod-]

You also bought a bridge that really never accomplished anything, could def. have been ambassador.  Turn 9 should have been the ambassador.  It may already have been too late, but at least the turn 12 "pass the turn with torturer/bridge in hand" wouldn't have happened. 

[play2draw]

I would have probably put a bigger focus on Library for drawing my cards. Torturer is pretty counter-intuitive in such an ambassador deck, as your opponent can freely take the curse and send it back to you. Fishing Village makes the Library more of a sure bet, and haven, opponents' torturers, and ambassador can help you set aside the junk and take advantage of the Library further.

[Epoch]

You also bought a bridge that really never accomplished anything, could def. have been ambassador.  Turn 9 should have been the ambassador.  It may already have been too late, but at least the turn 12 "pass the turn with torturer/bridge in hand" wouldn't have happened.

Completely true that the Bridge never accomplished anything.  I was at that point expecting a couple more "draw entire deck or substantial portion thereof" turns and wanted the bridge to set up some big buys.  It never happened.

[Epoch]

I would have probably put a bigger focus on Library for drawing my cards.

The problem with Library as a card drawer is that, first, it's totally incompatible with any of the other card drawers on the table, and it's only really compatible with Fishing Villages every other turn.  That said, if I had taken Library from the start...  I don't know.  It's a possibility.  I've never really put together a Fishing Village/Library engine, don't know how they perform.

I took Torturer on the basis that it's not only cards/actions, it's a brutal attack.

Torturer is pretty counter-intuitive in such an ambassador deck, as your opponent can freely take the curse and send it back to you.

I definitely underestimated the extent to which the "Curses go into your hand" part of Torturer sets up a good Ambassador return.  And I think that Phoenix played his Torturer choices very well, making good decisions about when to accept Curses and when to hand-size reduce.

That said, he only had 3 Ambassadors.  One of the ways I felt a little abused by chance was the degree to which he (with basically 5 card hands until the very late game) seemed to have Ambassadors in hand whenever my engine fired.  I knew that Ambassadors would return some curses, of course, but I felt like it was the classic "sure, your Chapel can trash Curses, but then it's not trashing other things" dichotomy where he'd end up spending so much time fighting off the Curses that his deck wouldn't be able to improve.  After all, Ambassador is a terminal that doesn't add to your that-turn buying power.

Again, I really think that Fishing Village vs normal Village hurt me here.  Fishing Village + Torturer on the turn FV is played only gets you 1 card advantage.  FV on turn 2 + a Torturer gives you a 2 card advantage, for the FV's that were played the turn before, but if you do draw more FV and Torturers there, you're back to only 1 card advantage on that turn.  The point of a cards/action engine is to set up mega-turns, and the way that FV is better on turn 2 than turn 1 really compromises the ability to chain them together.  If I had been drawing my whole deck or close to it in the mid game, I don't think his Ambassadors would have been nearly as much of a problem -- one or two Ambassadors of my own could have more-reliably returned the curses back to him, and ultimately that's a game I win -- if I'm Cursing him with Torturer + Ambassador, that's going to work better than him Cursing me with just Ambassador, and if his deck gets a little more bloated, then he stops reliably drawing his Ambassadors, especially with FVs to chain them (or he buys more Ambassadors and has buying power problems).

[play2draw]

I still think you'd be underestimating Library in the set. Using havens to pass your junk cards to the next turn, then Library draw four cards to try and draw some Gold. Fishing Villages make playing Ambassador after Library a stronger bet (or playing ambassador first, sending your opponent two cards, then drawing six cards with your Library). It is also a natural counter to opponents' Torturers and Ghost ships.

And Torturer is not as brutal as many think. I prefer my opponent buying Torturers rather than Witches or Ghost Ship most of the time.

And Ambassador does increase your buying power, as a larger percentage of your deck (assuming you're passing curses/estates) would be treasure cards after playing it.

[rinkworks]

Ditto what play2draw said.  Even if you can't reduce your hand size before playing Library, you're still drawing 3 cards with it -- the same number that a Torturer would draw.  But sometimes Library will draw more, whereas Torturer never draws more than three.

Torturer IS a brutal attack, but if you think about it, the attack power alone is strictly worse than a simple Witch.  Why?  If an opponent takes a Curse to a Witch, then the attack is roughly equal (the difference only being where the Curse winds up), and if an opponent chooses the discard option instead, that must mean it is LESS damaging than taking a Curse -- which implies that you'd have done more damage if you'd forced the Curse upon him, as a Witch would.

The reason Torturer is a comparable card is only because of its better drawing power, which makes it a better fit in +Actions/+Cards engines, such as the one you were trying to set up.  But again, Library is usually an even better drawer, and that's without even considering how effectively it counters Torturer and Ghost Ship.

[Epoch]

I still think you'd be underestimating Library in the set. Using havens to pass your junk cards to the next turn, then Library draw four cards to try and draw some Gold. Fishing Villages make playing Ambassador after Library a stronger bet (or playing ambassador first, sending your opponent two cards, then drawing six cards with your Library). It is also a natural counter to opponents' Torturers and Ghost ships.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of the synergy with Ambassador.

And Ambassador does increase your buying power, as a larger percentage of your deck (assuming you're passing curses/estates) would be treasure cards after playing it.

I was careful and said "that-turn buying power."  Presumably on some level, every (not totally stupid) buy you make increases your buying power.  (EDIT:  Or increases your VP total, or both.)

[Epoch]

Ditto what play2draw said.  Even if you can't reduce your hand size before playing Library, you're still drawing 3 cards with it -- the same number that a Torturer would draw.  But sometimes Library will draw more, whereas Torturer never draws more than three.

Well, except that you can't chain Libraries together (unless you have something that reduces your hand-size between the two Library plays, which eats into your +actions).

Torturer IS a brutal attack, but if you think about it, the attack power alone is strictly worse than a simple Witch.  Why?  If an opponent takes a Curse to a Witch, then the attack is roughly equal (the difference only being where the Curse winds up),

Torturer is +3 cards, Witch is +2.

and if an opponent chooses the discard option instead, that must mean it is LESS damaging than taking a Curse -- which implies that you'd have done more damage if you'd forced the Curse upon him, as a Witch would.

Torturer is, of course, a decent but not incredible $5 Attack card when played once per turn.  The thing that makes Village Torturer brutal is how it sets itself up to play multiple Torturers per turn, which usually (ie: not when your opponent has an Ambassador in hand) is utterly devastating.

Compared to Witch, well, first, +2 Cards doesn't let you set up a Cards/Action engine for the most part.  Second, there's a lot more possibility for misplay with Village/Torturer rather than Village/Witch.  When you get Tortured first in the turn: okay, do you take the Curse or do you just discard?  Well... discarding is probably better if your opponent is only going to Torture you once...  but then the next Torturer comes along, and you have to say, "Am I really willing to take a Curse in order to rescue a 3 card hand?"  But of course if you do discard again, then you're just prolonging the agony.

[rinkworks]

Torturer IS a brutal attack, but if you think about it, the attack power alone is strictly worse than a simple Witch.  Why?  If an opponent takes a Curse to a Witch, then the attack is roughly equal (the difference only being where the Curse winds up),

Torturer is +3 cards, Witch is +2.

I get that, which is why I said its "attack power" is strictly worse, and later said that Torturer becomes a comparable card to Witch because of its extra draw power.

I agree that Witch does not do well in a draw engine and that Torturer does.  I was just elaborating on only the attack power, which I think seems worse than it really is (until chained).