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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas  (Read 5112 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« on: August 20, 2012, 02:08:03 pm »
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King Midas (6)
Action - Legend
+2 Cards
Discard any number of Victory cards: +$2 per discarded card.
-----
When you buy this, name an Action card and put a Midas counter on that card's Kingdom pile. While a Midas counter is on that pile, cards with that name are Treasure cards. When this is returned to the Supply, remove all Midas counters from all Kingdom piles.



  • Rules for Legends:
    - Legends are individual cards, like the prizes that come with Tournament, except that they are directly available to be purchased.
    - Legends don't count as part of the Kingdom; they're included like Colonies--that is, at your leisure. The game won't end as a result of a Legends pile being empty.
    - At the end of your turn, if you have a Legend in play, it gets returned to the supply, even if another card would put it somewhere else (like Scheme).
    - If a Legend gets trashed, instead set it aside and return it to the supply when the current turn ends.
  • I wanted the main ability to be worth playing so a player wouldn't just sit on the card. The buy ability is meant to be abused with terminal coin producers, allowing you to play a bunch of them as treasures instead.
  • I've thought about a lot of the scenarios that could come up because of the type changing ability, and none of them seem mechanically problematic, but I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something huge. Let me know if you see it.

eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 02:29:23 pm »
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Seems weak to me, and the rules are a bit wonky.

It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

So you get this token power by buying the card.  But the power is rather symmetric -- your opponents will have the same effect on their own copies of that card.  It will have no real impact in a mirror matchup.

Legends are returned to the supply, and when this is returned to the supply, the tokens get removed.  That is a huge disincentive to actually playing the card.  That makes the $6 investment even less worthwhile.

The action itself is variable in strength.  Midas discards only VP, but it gets +$2 each.  Vault discards anything, but only gets +$1 each.  I would usually prefer Vault.  If I have enough VP cards in my deck for this to even tie Vault on average, then it's probably too late in the game for me to put $6 into the on-buy effect.  A Duchy would be better.
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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 02:31:47 pm »
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Seems weak to me, and the rules are a bit wonky.

It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

So you get this token power by buying the card.  But the power is rather symmetric -- your opponents will have the same effect on their own copies of that card.  It will have no real impact in a mirror matchup.

Legends are returned to the supply, and when this is returned to the supply, the tokens get removed.  That is a huge disincentive to actually playing the card.  That makes the $6 investment even less worthwhile.

The action itself is variable in strength.  Midas discards only VP, but it gets +$2 each.  Vault discards anything, but only gets +$1 each.  I would usually prefer Vault.  If I have enough VP cards in my deck for this to even tie Vault on average, then it's probably too late in the game for me to put $6 into the on-buy effect.  A Duchy would be better.

Erm, This is much better than Vault. Unless you're in curse-a-palooza or playing with tact/GM, discarding nonvictory for +1$ isn't actually that good.  ;)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 02:35:04 pm »
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Seems weak to me, and the rules are a bit wonky.

It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

So you get this token power by buying the card.  But the power is rather symmetric -- your opponents will have the same effect on their own copies of that card.  It will have no real impact in a mirror matchup.

Legends are returned to the supply, and when this is returned to the supply, the tokens get removed.  That is a huge disincentive to actually playing the card.  That makes the $6 investment even less worthwhile.

The action itself is variable in strength.  Midas discards only VP, but it gets +$2 each.  Vault discards anything, but only gets +$1 each.  I would usually prefer Vault.  If I have enough VP cards in my deck for this to even tie Vault on average, then it's probably too late in the game for me to put $6 into the on-buy effect.  A Duchy would be better.

Erm, This is much better than Vault. Unless you're in curse-a-palooza or playing with tact/GM, discarding nonvictory for +1$ isn't actually that good.  ;)

But during the mid game, how much green are you going to find?  At best you hit all three of your starting Estates.  Sometimes you whiff completely.  Maybe this gives you license to green earlier?  But it disappears right after you use it, and then it'll be hard to hit that $6 again.

Vault is nice in that it doesn't mind drawing dead actions and other junk.

If this card could be played more than once without returning to the supply, then I could see it being powerful in enabling early greening strategies.
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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 02:39:11 pm »
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Seems weak to me, and the rules are a bit wonky.

It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

So you get this token power by buying the card.  But the power is rather symmetric -- your opponents will have the same effect on their own copies of that card.  It will have no real impact in a mirror matchup.

Legends are returned to the supply, and when this is returned to the supply, the tokens get removed.  That is a huge disincentive to actually playing the card.  That makes the $6 investment even less worthwhile.

The action itself is variable in strength.  Midas discards only VP, but it gets +$2 each.  Vault discards anything, but only gets +$1 each.  I would usually prefer Vault.  If I have enough VP cards in my deck for this to even tie Vault on average, then it's probably too late in the game for me to put $6 into the on-buy effect.  A Duchy would be better.

Erm, This is much better than Vault. Unless you're in curse-a-palooza or playing with tact/GM, discarding nonvictory for +1$ isn't actually that good.  ;)

But during the mid game, how much green are you going to find?  At best you hit all three of your starting Estates.  Sometimes you whiff completely.  Maybe this gives you license to green earlier?  But it disappears right after you use it, and then it'll be hard to hit that $6 again.

Vault is nice in that it doesn't mind drawing dead actions and other junk.

If this card could be played more than once without returning to the supply, then I could see it being powerful in enabling early greening strategies.

You need to draw an equal amount of dead actions and curses to your green to make vault better than this. I think you're thinking about discarding coppers with vault, which 85% of the time is useless.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 03:12:35 pm »
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It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

That's the only example I could find that has a natural question that isn't answerable just by reading the cards. It'd be clarified in the rules: extra actions gained during the buy phase are generally useless save for things like Diadem. If you notice other confusing things, let me know, cause I'm wondering if the are any big ones out there.

So you get this token power by buying the card.  But the power is rather symmetric -- your opponents will have the same effect on their own copies of that card.  It will have no real impact in a mirror matchup.

You can set things up for yourself, like with anything else seemingly symmetrical in the game. 

Legends are returned to the supply, and when this is returned to the supply, the tokens get removed.  That is a huge disincentive to actually playing the card.  That makes the $6 investment even less worthwhile.

The cost might be off there, but it needed to have tension between holding on to the effect and playing it for the big coin benefit. That way, you can abuse the treasure ability, but sooner or later you'll want to play King Midas, allowing someone else a crack at him if they want.



The power issue isn't a big deal to me at the moment; at least, the particular numbers aren't. That's something playtesting can smooth out. For this particular card, I want to know if the idea of Legends as I've written them up is interesting at all, and if the actions into treasure ability is interesting, workable, and understandable.

eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 03:21:45 pm »
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You need to draw an equal amount of dead actions and curses to your green to make vault better than this. I think you're thinking about discarding coppers with vault, which 85% of the time is useless.

Hm, that's a good comparison.  Maybe you're right.
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FishingVillage

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 03:30:30 pm »
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It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

That's the only example I could find that has a natural question that isn't answerable just by reading the cards. It'd be clarified in the rules: extra actions gained during the buy phase are generally useless save for things like Diadem. If you notice other confusing things, let me know, cause I'm wondering if the are any big ones out there.
Quick question on this then; if I put a Midas token on Throne Room or King's Court, would I be able to play Action cards from my hand during my Buy phase by using those?
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 03:54:15 pm »
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It will get really confusing when trying to play Action cards as Treasures.  For example, if there is a token on Village and you play it in your Buy phase... do you now have actions to play other action cards?  It's a mess.

That's the only example I could find that has a natural question that isn't answerable just by reading the cards. It'd be clarified in the rules: extra actions gained during the buy phase are generally useless save for things like Diadem. If you notice other confusing things, let me know, cause I'm wondering if the are any big ones out there.
Quick question on this then; if I put a Midas token on Throne Room or King's Court, would I be able to play Action cards from my hand during my Buy phase by using those?

Yup. Any extra actions you gain won't do anything, but the rest of the benefits will. This is one of the interactions that made me think about not going with this idea.

I have this problem where I want to show off an idea, but I cloud it something else. I thought about just making a terminal Gold for (5), thinking that it being returned to the supply every time it got used was good enough. Maybe that should have been my card to display the Legend idea.

EDIT: Friend just reminded me that a Dark Ages card similar to that exists. Hmmm....
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 03:58:13 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2012, 03:03:23 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2012, 06:20:21 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.

Jack Rudd

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 06:13:42 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.
No, no, that's not what I mean. Black Market and King Midas in the kingdom, with at least one King Midas having been bought. Black Market then allows you to play your Actions-which-are-now-Treasures in the Action phase.

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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 06:16:10 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.
No, no, that's not what I mean. Black Market and King Midas in the kingdom, with at least one King Midas having been bought. Black Market then allows you to play your Actions-which-are-now-Treasures in the Action phase.
the only difference would be that making villages treasures would get better.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 07:31:10 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.
No, no, that's not what I mean. Black Market and King Midas in the kingdom, with at least one King Midas having been bought. Black Market then allows you to play your Actions-which-are-now-Treasures in the Action phase.
the only difference would be that making villages treasures would get better.

If you put the token on a terminal, you can now play any number of that terminal during the Black Market phase even though you have no more actions.
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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 07:35:06 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.
No, no, that's not what I mean. Black Market and King Midas in the kingdom, with at least one King Midas having been bought. Black Market then allows you to play your Actions-which-are-now-Treasures in the Action phase.
the only difference would be that making villages treasures would get better.

If you put the token on a terminal, you can now play any number of that terminal during the Black Market phase even though you have no more actions.
right. and you can do that in the buy phase too. I suppose it matters on card-draw terminals if there are also villages, since you can play village, then play BM to drop a bunch of Treasure-Smithies. so there's that too.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #30 - King Midas
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 07:39:59 pm »
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This could interact in very weird ways with Black Market.

It would need a special ruling, for sure. I would rule that it gets put on the bottom of the Black Market deck, which makes things rather simple.
No, no, that's not what I mean. Black Market and King Midas in the kingdom, with at least one King Midas having been bought. Black Market then allows you to play your Actions-which-are-now-Treasures in the Action phase.
the only difference would be that making villages treasures would get better.

If you put the token on a terminal, you can now play any number of that terminal during the Black Market phase even though you have no more actions.
right. and you can do that in the buy phase too. I suppose it matters on card-draw terminals if there are also villages, since you can play village, then play BM to drop a bunch of Treasure-Smithies. so there's that too.

Well the terminal could cause other things to be played, e.g. Golem, TR.

What about cards that give +1 action?  Now you can turn multiples of them into villages...
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