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Author Topic: Count v. Mandarin?  (Read 5849 times)

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O

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Count v. Mandarin?
« on: August 19, 2012, 01:53:25 am »
+1

Count is strictly better than mandarin after the on-gain, and in reality is much better. Most agree that the Mandarin on-gain actually sucks 85% of the time.

==> Count means DXV agreed that mandarin is incredibly mediocre?
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Archetype

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 02:27:23 am »
0

Mandarin's on buy effect isnt too bad. In an engine you can pick one up, and have 5 next turn to buy an engine piece.
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O

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 02:29:06 am »
0

Mandarin's on buy effect isnt too bad. In an engine you can pick one up, and have 5 next turn to buy an engine piece.
...and set yourself back a full turn (cycling etc.) for the mandarin.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 02:29:46 am »
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I'm sure there are some instances where Mandarin's on gain is good to have. But, for the most part, I would 99% of the time buy count over Mandarin.
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blueblimp

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 03:42:02 am »
0

Count vs Mandarin may replace Noble Brigand vs Thief as the closest thing Dominion has to a strictly-better relationship at the same cost. At least Thief has some use vs Fool's Gold that NB doesn't.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 05:46:39 am »
0

So why did I get a thumb down for my comment on this article :( ? http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/08/16/dark-ages-cards-revealed/
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Chocolate is like victory points in Dominion. Both taste good but they'll hurt you if you eat too much of it instead of something else in your early days.

Tdog

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 07:32:09 am »
0

So why did I get a thumb down for my comment on this article :( ? http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/08/16/dark-ages-cards-revealed/

A closet Mandarin lover.
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Grujah

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 07:35:59 am »
+1

Mandarin's on buy is great for when you draw Plat or Golds dead with Green. Expect that... ugh.


There is also new Hop/Mand/Cultist combo that empties duchies + 2 other piles in one turn.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 09:07:45 am »
0

I actually think Mandarin will be better than Count on most boards. The boards where it makes much difference, count will be much better. But I do expect Count to be pretty darn bad (except with duke and silk road and gardens, where it's amazing).

Mandarin's on-gain effect is really useful, and makes it a lot better for BM than people realize.

Jfrisch

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 10:08:28 am »
0

@WW, why do you think so/are you crazy?
put 1 back is good for collisions (and, if there are no collision's doesn't need to be chosen)
discard 2 can be chosen when junk is in your hand
gain a copper is a fairly mild penalty.

Term gold by itself might not be so hot, but the choice between term gold and gain a duchy feels pretty powerful in the endgame. Given that, because of the put 1 back you can (close to) spam this I'd be surprised if count is a particularly weak BM enabler.
For disappearing engines (especially menagerie) it feels like it will be amazing. disappearing term gold with discard ability yay! if with menagerie put back the duplicate, also yay.
In general for engines, the chapel ability feels like it has the potential to be really, really, if it conflicts with a strong card put it back on your deck, otherwise either put a card back or gain a copper, a pretty mild penalty for that kind of trashing ability. Given that it doesn't become weak in the endgame, like most trashers, this seems really nice. Also DA gives quite a lot of support for trashers in general so this should help...

Basically I don't get why you think it's weak and would really like if you could elaborate.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 10:21:27 am »
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If it's going to be strong, it's going to be because of the trashing (or because you're playing alt VP). Terminal gold or gain a duchy, WITH a penalty, just isn't a very strong card, early, endgame, whenever. I mean, harvest is not so great, mandarin not that good, just, yeah, it's not so good. Gaining duchies is hardly ever something that will win you the game, except in alt VP. I'm sure chwhite will agree with me here.
So how good is the trashing? Well, the issue is, how soon can you get it. If you can spike one on a 5/2, that trashing ought to be real good. Otherwise, trashing your whole hand becomes weaker and weaker and weaker. To the point where you get to use it once, maaaaybe twice. And for a $5, it just doesn't seem that great. I mean, nice card to have sure, but I am comparing it to other 5s here. And so, the ancillary benefits make it a bit better of a card than Mandarin overall (even though mandarin is more often good, if that makes any sense), but I don't think it will be an above-average 5. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm right. Time will tell.

Eevee

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 10:26:48 am »
+1

The thing is, for when you want to gain the duchy (alt vp or endgame), there is no real drawback because gaining copper is actually good (and so can be placing a card on top of your deck). Similarly, when used as a terminal gold, you can just gain some copper (never a big deal) or sometimes even benefit by topdecking an action that collided. Looks a lot better than mandarin to me.
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Copernicus

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 12:25:55 pm »
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Mandarin is mostly useful for it's "on-gain" ability.  Especially in late-games where a Gold/Silver this hand means a possible Province next hand.
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Varsinor

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 01:12:39 pm »
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There is also new Hop/Mand/Cultist combo that empties duchies + 2 other piles in one turn.

How? I don't see it.
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Grujah

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 01:21:06 pm »
0

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Loschmidt

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 11:11:12 pm »
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If it's going to be strong, it's going to be because of the trashing (or because you're playing alt VP). Terminal gold or gain a duchy, WITH a penalty, just isn't a very strong card, early, endgame, whenever. I mean, harvest is not so great, mandarin not that good, just, yeah, it's not so good. Gaining duchies is hardly ever something that will win you the game, except in alt VP. I'm sure chwhite will agree with me here.
So how good is the trashing? Well, the issue is, how soon can you get it. If you can spike one on a 5/2, that trashing ought to be real good. Otherwise, trashing your whole hand becomes weaker and weaker and weaker. To the point where you get to use it once, maaaaybe twice. And for a $5, it just doesn't seem that great. I mean, nice card to have sure, but I am comparing it to other 5s here. And so, the ancillary benefits make it a bit better of a card than Mandarin overall (even though mandarin is more often good, if that makes any sense), but I don't think it will be an above-average 5. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm right. Time will tell.

While I'm more optimistic than you about Count's other benefits, I agree that is potentially a very powerful alt-vp enabler. Do you think Count is going to be a better Duke enabler than Horse Traders?
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Kahryl

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 12:24:03 am »
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I like Mandarin's on-gain effect. If you get a 5/2 opening, why, just stuff your deck with 4 Mandarins right away and have terminal golds in your hand forever!  8)
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Archetype

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 12:28:29 am »
0

I like Mandarin's on-gain effect. If you get a 5/2 opening, why, just stuff your deck with 4 Mandarins right away and have terminal golds in your hand forever!  8)

And while you buy Mandarins your opponent actually builds a productive deck...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 01:57:03 am »
0

I guess I see Mandarin as a card you buy and play once you've started down the road of buying VP. Up until that point, you want to cycle your deck faster to get to your newer, better cards. Afterward, you want to cycle more slowly, and few cards delay a reshuffle as much as Mandarin.

If it's going to be strong, it's going to be because of the trashing (or because you're playing alt VP). Terminal gold or gain a duchy, WITH a penalty, just isn't a very strong card, early, endgame, whenever. I mean, harvest is not so great, mandarin not that good, just, yeah, it's not so good. Gaining duchies is hardly ever something that will win you the game, except in alt VP. I'm sure chwhite will agree with me here.
So how good is the trashing? Well, the issue is, how soon can you get it. If you can spike one on a 5/2, that trashing ought to be real good. Otherwise, trashing your whole hand becomes weaker and weaker and weaker. To the point where you get to use it once, maaaaybe twice. And for a $5, it just doesn't seem that great. I mean, nice card to have sure, but I am comparing it to other 5s here. And so, the ancillary benefits make it a bit better of a card than Mandarin overall (even though mandarin is more often good, if that makes any sense), but I don't think it will be an above-average 5. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm right. Time will tell.

Count I see as a card you buy pretty early and use opportunistically. I think its strength is its extreme flexibility and I predict that you're not giving it enough credit. You're arguing how each piece of Count is mediocre, and by that metric, Steward must be pretty bad.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 03:11:47 am »
0

I actually think Mandarin will be better than Count on most boards. The boards where it makes much difference, count will be much better. But I do expect Count to be pretty darn bad (except with duke and silk road and gardens, where it's amazing).

Mandarin's on-gain effect is really useful, and makes it a lot better for BM than people realize.
But for BM, the on-play ability is really bad too. With Count, you won't be able to get that early Gold that you get out of the Mandarin on-gain ability, but every play, you don't have to put that card back (you can just gain Copper instead), making it actually a terminal gold. Plus there's that Duchy-gain ability that can help Duchy dance. So I'm not convinced Mandarin is actually better than Count in BM.
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Asklepios

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2012, 06:15:41 am »
+1

I like Mandarin's on-gain effect. If you get a 5/2 opening, why, just stuff your deck with 4 Mandarins right away and have terminal golds in your hand forever!  8)

And while you buy Mandarins your opponent actually builds a productive deck...

Though a deck stuffed with Mandarins CAN be productive, if you're using them in some other way, like making that third or fourth buy an Apprentice.
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senseless

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Re: Count v. Mandarin?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 06:39:44 am »
+1

With count, you can't do copper+silver+gold+platinum+HoP, gain a Mandarin, buy a Colony, repeat.
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