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Author Topic: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?  (Read 30524 times)

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dougz

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 11:02:19 am »
+7

But what about at least leaving Iso online as is between August 22 and the actual launch of Goko?

I expect that iso will be able to stay up until a week after goko launches, whenever that is, which was basically their original plan.  I have not actually heard anything official from them (other than "August 22"), but I think that's because my contact (Trisha) is currently at GenCon and is busy with other things right now.
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Jedit

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 02:52:46 pm »
0


To some people - I'm not saying you have to agree with them, but only, look at this, turn it over in your mind - to some people, this question would seem a lot like: Sure you can see Batman: The Dark Ages Rise in theaters... but as long as it isn't available on DVD yet, can we all torrent it?

That's a very poor analogy, Donald.  Dark Ages is not a movie that you only want to see once in a while but has a period where you can't see it legally.  It's a game that people want to play repeatedly and indefinitely.  If I want to see a movie after it's left cinemas but before the DVD release then I have to torrent it.  Technically, that removes any need for me to buy the DVD because I will still have my torrented copy after the DVD comes out.  However, if Dark Ages was put on Iso then I could play there for free - but when Goko goes live for real I will have to pay if I want to play because Iso will go away and I won't have my "torrented copy" any more.

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso because they're not making any money from it so long as they remain in beta.  The idea that there is only a window where they can make peak profit from DA is a bad one, as it will encourage them to rush through the revision process and release another buggy product that will drive even more people away.  The idea is also wrong, unless Dark Ages is not a set that people will want to play with and would feel suckered out of their money if they bought it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 03:20:53 pm »
+1

Dark Ages is not a movie that you only want to see once in a while but has a period where you can't see it legally.  It's a game that people want to play repeatedly and indefinitely.
It's true that people tend to play a game more times than they watch a movie. And I would like to think that Dark Ages is all things to all people. But surely there is a game that you felt satisfied with buying and yet only played ten times total, if that. Some people will do nothing but play with Dark Ages for the rest of their lives, while others only have so many plays in them.

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso
Disagree!

The idea that there is only a window where they can make peak profit from DA is a bad one, as it will encourage them to rush through the revision process and release another buggy product that will drive even more people away.
I don't know if you are picturing me standing outside their offices yelling "peak profit!" or what. Doug posted about this peak profit thing, not me. If you think they want another failed launch, I don't know what to tell you, that makes no sense. They should want it out ASAP for sure, and they can want it out ASAP and yet not blow it. inb4 "not those guys lol!"
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dnkywin

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 04:14:25 pm »
0

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso because they're not making any money from it so long as they remain in beta.
Disagree!

Added Jedit's logic back in.

Donald, is it possible you could add some insight into why you disagree? [Please don't use an analogy (for the sake of blue dogs everywhere).] On a slighlty related note, right now it seems like Goko is trying to suppress everyone and try to pressure them into buying an unpolished product, and honestly it's kind of a big turnoff. I feel as if more people would be excited about Dark Ages on Goko if we were given a taste of it on isotropic.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 04:46:13 pm »
+1

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso
Disagree!

Added Jedit's logic back in.
Fixed your quote hack! That "because" clause is changing zilch here.

Donald, is it possible you could add some insight into why you disagree? [Please don't use an analogy (for the sake of blue dogs everywhere).] On a slighlty related note, right now it seems like Goko is trying to suppress everyone and try to pressure them into buying an unpolished product, and honestly it's kind of a big turnoff. I feel as if more people would be excited about Dark Ages on Goko if we were given a taste of it on isotropic.
I can only spend so much of my life interacting with people who are unhappy about Goko. Complaining about previous times I posted doesn't help your case there. And you aren't asking for anything I haven't already said.
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O

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2012, 05:03:57 pm »
+4

*raises hand*

I'm more likely to buy Goko because DA is not on isotropic. Not at the ridiculous 75$, but still more likely to buy it.

DXV is right: holding back DA from isotropic is good economic sense for Goko/RGG
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2012, 05:17:23 pm »
+2

Just because I enjoy arguing with O. 

On a scale from 1 to 5 - All things considered, how do you feel about your relationship as a customer with Goko?

On a scale from 1 to 5 - How likely is the answer to the previous question going to be a factor in purchasing products and / or services from Goko in the near future?

Imagine that you read the following press release on goko.com
Quote from: not_a_real_press_release
Dear Dominion fans,

We @goko apologize for the issues that occured during our attempted launch on 8/16.  We have re-entered beta status and will relaunch after several issues have been addressed, from the performance issues that were uncovered at launch to the security issues raised by our beta testing community.

In the meantime - we, along with our partners Rio Grande Games and Donald X. have authorized existing unofficial implementations (such as isotropic and androminion) to release [subset - possibly full set of Dark Ages cards] to the community until our official version is ready to be released to the public again.

We'd also like to apologize for the section of the rulebook that implied that the unofficial versions were illegal and didn't support the designers.  Obviously, many of these implementations have been operating with the permission of the designer and Rio Grande Games in advance of an officially licensed product - and have contributed greatly to the popularization of the great game of dominion - as well as being used to beta test the product prior to the physical card launch.  One week after we go live - these developers of these products have all agreed to take these offline, and then any future implementations that may arise will be operating illegally.  The rulebook was written with this future state in mind - and didn't mean to imply that other popular implementations were at this time illegal.

Please enjoy previewing dark ages until we're ready for you to play it over at goko.

Regards,

<X>

On a scale from 1 to 5 - how would you feel about your relationship with goko if they released this announcement?

If they did this they could require any implementation that wants to launch those cards have a splash message indicating that the preview of the Dark Ages cards is sponsored by goko - etc. etc.

Hey look at that - some action from goko that might actually result in positive press from the community.
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carstimon

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2012, 06:36:57 pm »
+1

Here's anecdotal evidence.  [insert: for "they get more money because DA is not on iso"]

I'm trying to play less dominion online.  I've played maybe 3 games on iso in the passed week.  If dark ages was on iso right now I would play it.  I recently bought more physical dominion to satisfy my appetite.
Since I'm trying to kick the habit, I probably won't buy all the expansions on Goko.  I might buy dark ages though, just because I would never have had the opportunity play dark ages in an online (good players) setting.  If it had been on iso it would be on the same footing as all the expansions- low interest.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 06:49:11 pm by carstimon »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2012, 08:28:46 pm »
0

As much as I'd love it, it would be bad for them to let Androminion release an update with Dark Ages.  Just because it gets taken out of the store doesn't mean I won't still have the app on my phone.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 01:49:05 am »
+2

I'm not arguing for Dark Ages on isotropic, but there's no way Goko's getting a boost from me by having Dark Ages before it's in stores. That would require me to buy Dark Ages on Goko, which would presumably involve me giving them my credit card information. Goko may be able someday to regain my trust, but it will probably involve acknowledging that they have severe security issues and hiring a reputable security consultant. That's the bare minimum.
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cactus

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 06:24:41 am »
+2

"Hey look at that - some action from goko that might actually result in positive press from the community."

Two mindsets:

1/ The most important thing to us is that people are able to enjoy the game they love to the fullest extent. If our implementation of the game (and the way we do business) is based on this principle the players will like us and our implementation of the game. They will speak well of us to many other people and success and ultimately profits will follow.

vs

2/ The most important thing to us is our (short term) term financial interest. If the experiences of player suffer a little bit, well that doesn't matter because we have done a deal to be the exclusive provider of this service so people can't go elsewhere. We will however give some lip-service to "our customers being important to us" and doing an implementation that is true to the nature of the original game.


Now I am not saying the second option is definitely true of Goko (please prove me wrong), or that they should necessarily allow DA to be available or whatever.... but everytime they make a decision to give the player base a poorer game play experience because it is in Goko's financial interests to do so opens them up to people feeling aggrieved about their motives and the way they do business. When it comes down to it I really just want to play dominion on line with the most possible cards and best possible interface/implementation. If I feel like Goko trying to ensure their finances is the reason is the reason I can't do that then yes I am going to feel peeved.

Sometime in the indeterminate future some of the powers that be will remember that the game play is the important thing and the reason we're all here in the first place.... a version of dark ages will get up online.... and we can all go and play it a have a good time instead of spending our time here posting....

yuma

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 08:39:35 am »
0

But what about at least leaving Iso online as is between August 22 and the actual launch of Goko?

I expect that iso will be able to stay up until a week after goko launches, whenever that is, which was basically their original plan.  I have not actually heard anything official from them (other than "August 22"), but I think that's because my contact (Trisha) is currently at GenCon and is busy with other things right now.

do we have a confirmation on that yet?
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Orange

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2012, 12:31:53 pm »
0

Goko would not be losing money if Dark Ages was on Iso
Disagree!

Until I see respected members of this community tell me that Goko is equal to or greater than Isotropic, or I can judge that for myself for free, I'm not going to give them a nickel.  We have already seen what can be done for free; why would we pay for an inferior product, even if the free product is taken away?
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 01:59:23 pm »
+3

Until I see respected members of this community tell me that Goko is equal to or greater than Isotropic, or I can judge that for myself for free, I'm not going to give them a nickel.  We have already seen what can be done for free; why would we pay for an inferior product, even if the free product is taken away?

I'm not sure I follow that argument.

Anything can be done for free. Hell, the entire Adobe Master Collection could be done for free. Diablo III could be done for free.

All it takes for something to be free is a willingness by the designer(s) to do the work in his spare time.

We had this with Doug. It was awesome, no doubt, that he was willing to put forth this work in his spare time. It an anomaly, though. Most products of that quality are not free to use. Even products that seem free to the end user (such as Facebook) are supported through other revenues.

So, great, Doug produced a professional-level product and didn't ask for a single cent, which was great for the community. Just because Doug was a paragon of generosity doesn't mean that it's appropriate to compare his product and pricing model to someone else who is trying to make a buck on it.

Besides, you say that you want to judge it for free before spending a nickel. You can. It's already part of the pricing model. If you play the free game and like it, then spend money on the expansions. If you don't like it, then don't play online Dominion. The solution is already in place. There's no need for such finality before the product is even released.
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polonkus

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 02:05:44 pm »
0


Besides, you say that you want to judge it for free before spending a nickel. You can. It's already part of the pricing model. If you play the free game and like it, then spend money on the expansions. If you don't like it, then don't play online Dominion. The solution is already in place. There's no need for such finality before the product is even released.

Except you can't, because it's completely broken, and no one has any idea when it is going to work.
Remember the context of this discussion is the possibility of having Dark Ages go live on Isotropic until Goko is actually released.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:06:46 pm by polonkus »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 02:25:50 pm »
0

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.
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jsh357

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 02:28:59 pm »
0

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.

Agreed.  Goko definitely had problems (Security, connectivity, a few minor rules issues, the KC bug) but it's certainly a solid product for the most part and playable.  I have been frustrated at them since the failure to launch, but it has escalated out of hand to a degree. 

That said, I do hope the next beta update will have some of the new cards to test.  They should want to get Goko out cleaner and take measures to do so.
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Tombolo

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2012, 02:39:28 pm »
+1

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

It might be overstating it a bit, sure, but...let's not forget that there isn't actually even a product right now.  Maybe the beta is a magical place where the blue dogs roam free, but I can't get in there myself to look at it, so I am forced to rely on my experience with the launch and on secondhand info.  One is quite negative and the other is mixed at the very best.
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polonkus

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2012, 02:45:12 pm »
+2

Completely broken? That's the phrase you choose to describe Goko's product?

With such hyperbole being slung around, it's no wonder there are people out there who are terrified of trying Goko.

From my experience with the beta version, I can say that the game is not completely broken. Even when I first joined the beta, the game was not completely broken.

I wouldn't even say it's badly broken, but that can be in the eye of the beholder.

Can you log in and play? No? Then it's broken, end of story.

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:47:49 pm by polonkus »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2012, 02:56:55 pm »
+2

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.

Which has been stated isn't going to happen.

You had your free lunch. That's great. Want dessert? That's not free. We must accept it and move on if we are to avoid going crazy. 
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polonkus

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2012, 03:04:06 pm »
0

Again, this thread is about the possiblity of DA on isotropic UNTIL THE ACTUAL GOKO LAUNCH.

Which has been stated isn't going to happen.

You had your free lunch. That's great. Want dessert? That's not free. We must accept it and move on if we are to avoid going crazy.

Someone posted an appropriate quote elsewhere recently.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress, therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man."
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blueblimp

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2012, 03:08:32 pm »
+4

Somehow I don't think that quote had in mind complaining on an internet forum.
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Tombolo

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2012, 03:09:16 pm »
0

I am not sure I like that quote.  You can most certainly change the world while operating within reason, and there is no guarantee that "progress" is always good or desirable.
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blueblimp

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2012, 03:12:51 pm »
0

I am not sure I like that quote.  You can most certainly change the world while operating within reason, and there is no guarantee that "progress" is always good or desirable.
I like it, because I think it's saying essentially "don't just learn to live with bad/annoying things, try to fix them", which is an attitude that does get stuff done.
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Tombolo

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Re: Dark Ages on Iso a Possibility?
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2012, 03:19:43 pm »
0

Perhaps, but using the "reasonable" terminology just makes it comes across to me as a dressed-up version of YOLO.
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