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Author Topic: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils  (Read 2493 times)

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Varsinor

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Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« on: August 17, 2012, 04:21:12 pm »
0

I am not entirely sure if this has already been answered somewhere, but I think not (at least I didn't find it). I guess it will be answered in the rules manual of Dark Ages, but alas, that isn't yet online on the RGG page. So here it comes:

When you play Counterfeit -> Spoils, which of the following three outcomes takes place?

a) You get $6 for playing the Spoils twice, then it goes to the trash. [Counterfeit's instructions take precedence over Spoils'.]
b) You get $3 for playing the Spoils once, after that you can't play it again because it went straight back to the supply (so it doesn't get trashed, either). [Spoils' instructions take precedence over Counterfeit's.]
c) You get $6 for playing Spoils twice, then it goes back to the supply. [For some reason, Counterfeit's instructions take precedence over Spoils' regarding the playing twice part, but Spoils' instructions take precedence over Counterfeit's regarding the supply vs. trash decision.]

If I had to, I'd guess b), but I am really not sure. And since Counterfeit looks pretty weak to me overall, I really think it could use the boost it would get from a) or c), so from that perspective I would prefer either of these.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 04:30:12 pm »
+9

I think it's c.  You do everything you can.  So let's see what we are trying to do.

You play Counterfeit. 
-- You get +$1, +1 Buy.  You may now play a treasure from your hand twice.  So let's do that.
-- Using Counterfeit, you play Spoils. 
---- Spoils gives you +$3.  Spoils tells you to return it to the Supply, so you do that.
-- Using Counterfeit, you play Spoils a second time.  You should be able to do this even though it has been returned to the supply; consider the situation with Throne Room and Feast.
---- Spoils gives you +$3 again.  You are supposed to return it to the Supply but it is already there, so that's fine.
-- Counterfeit now tells you to trash the Spoils.  Well, you can't -- Counterfeit lost track of it when it was returned to the Supply.

So that's that.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 04:31:26 pm »
+1

My guess is c):

You play Counterfeit, playing Spoils. This play of Spoils gives you $3 and returns it to the pile. You then play Spoils again, gaining $3 and not moving it at all because it's lost track of itself (but it's in the supply now anyway so it doesn't really matter). Then Counterfeit trys to trash it, but can't because it's lost track.

So many ninjas around here.
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clb

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 04:32:58 pm »
+2

My guess is c):

You play Counterfeit, playing Spoils. This play of Spoils gives you $3 and returns it to the pile. You then play Spoils again, gaining $3 and not moving it at all because it's lost track of itself (but it's in the supply now anyway so it doesn't really matter). Then Counterfeit trys to trash it, but can't because it's lost track.

So many ninjas around here.
rule book agrees.
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ftl

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 05:00:19 pm »
+3

It's not about taking precedence! I don't think Dominion has precedence rules.

You do everything on each card, in order. Sometimes, the way card interactions work, you do some things from one card and then some things from another card - this is one such case.

Counterfeit says: Pick a card, play it twice, then trash it.

OK, so you pick a treasure card: Spoils.
You play it twice: Ok, so you play Spoils and as part of playing it return it to the spoils pile and get +$3. Then you play it again, you can't return it to the pile because it's already there, and you still get +$3 because the +$3 doesn't say "if you return this to the supply...", it happens regardless.
You trash it... ...but wait, you can't trash it, because it's already been returned to the spoils pile and who knows what happened to it there.

So it's (c).

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Varsinor

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 07:10:21 pm »
+1

Thx guys, convincing arguments! :D

And since Counterfeit looks pretty weak to me overall,

Just a quick note to say I changed my mind about my overall assessment of Counterfeit. On second glance it seems quite attractive to me - for some reason I didn't think of the fact that you can use Counterfeit to trash your Coppers in the early and middle game and when you don't start trashing Silver and Gold until later, their loss isn't so important as you won't reshuffle that often anymore.

Then there's the strong synergy with Spoils we talked about here and there also seems to be a strong synergy with Horn of Plenty.
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PSGarak

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 01:09:00 am »
+4

Think of Counterfeit as an upgrade to Moneylender: it doesn't take an action, it has +buy, and it can still trash a copper to get +$3 overall. Plus it can do shenanigans with non-copper, which Moneylender cannot.
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Squidd

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Re: Interaction of Counterfeit and Spoils
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 08:58:44 am »
+6

Speculation: Doublejack might really like Counterfeit? Helps get rid of the coppers that Jack won't trash, and then the steady influx of silver also makes good fodder for counterfeiting.
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