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Author Topic: Looking to the future: The Guilds  (Read 19384 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 03:37:13 pm »
+1

There was a Friendship is Magic fan expansion which dealt with 'Friendship Tokens'.  Hear me out.  They were usually gained through pretty lousy terminals, but for every 2 in your pile, you could start off every turn with drawing 1 more card.  Permanent Wharves. 

I think the concept or something similar will be playtested at some point.  Though perhaps that's already happened with Seaside?

Given that this is a small expansion, and we haven't seen tokens since Prosperity, I'm guessing there won't be.

What I'm curious is to whether this will simply be a few new cards related to a central theme (a la Cornucopia), or a few new cards that all hinge on a new mechanic (a la Alchemy).
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Scissors61

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 11:25:30 pm »
0

It could be a mix of the two. But if not, I hope it's a new mechanic introduced. Those are usually fun.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 11:58:40 pm »
0

I severely doubt the guilds mechanic is a linear mechanic (I read Magic: The Gathering design articles) that relies on certain other cards without some kind of safeguard that they end up in the same kingdom. Why would anyone in their right mind use a linear mechanic in an 8th or last set? DXV might have considered it (Alchemy probably was one of the last sets before it is bumped), but it is likely good to keep linear cards in middle expansions. If there is a linear aspect to the mechanic, the cards themselves will make sure the cards they are impacted by end up in the same kingdom. For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 12:01:48 am »
0

I severely doubt the guilds mechanic is a linear mechanic (I read Magic: The Gathering design articles) that relies on certain other cards without some kind of safeguard that they end up in the same kingdom. Why would anyone in their right mind use a linear mechanic in an 8th or last set? DXV might have considered it (Alchemy probably was one of the last sets before it is bumped), but it is likely good to keep linear cards in middle expansions. If there is a linear aspect to the mechanic, the cards themselves will make sure the cards they are impacted by end up in the same kingdom. For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.

Good point, we have a very linear card built for one expansion, and we all know how that worked out. Scout.
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:47 am »
0

Well, one mechanic that we haven't seen is cards that "power up" themselves (a la trade route, city) separately for each player.  I mean, gardens and other alt-vp cards do that, but they're just VP.  Phil stone does that, but it's just money.  What if you had an action card that got more powerful as your deck got bigger?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 01:21:03 am »
+2

Well, one mechanic that we haven't seen is cards that "power up" themselves (a la trade route, city) separately for each player.  I mean, gardens and other alt-vp cards do that, but they're just VP.  Phil stone does that, but it's just money.  What if you had an action card that got more powerful as your deck got bigger?

Pirate Ship sort is an individual "power up" card. 

I wouldn't like a Gardens-esque power-up action card.  I imagine Philo Stone is pretty annoying to play IRL.  An action that requires you to count your deck would be annoying too. :P
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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 01:30:43 am »
+1

For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.

No way in hell.  Guilds will only have 150 cards.  At the most, that means 13 kingdom cards.  That's little enough to have any chance of appearing in a random setup.  Having just one kingdom card that interacts with, say, 3 other guildsmen, would drop that down to 10 kingdom cards.  There's just not enough room in a small expansion to pull off a Madman/Mercernary style thing.  Dark Ages was only able to do so because it's EXTRA large.

I imagine Philo Stone is pretty annoying to play IRL.

It is, but not as much as you'd think.
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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 01:37:06 am »
+3

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 01:40:35 am »
0

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

A card to make Scout overpowered!!! Yes, what I have always wanted!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 01:56:31 am »
0

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

I like this idea, with the caveat that the Guilds bonus applies only to Guilds set cards (maybe all of them, maybe not). 

As a very rudimentary example, maybe there is a vanilla Guilds card, Journeyman that gives "+1 action, +2 Guild bonus".  And then if you chose Merchant Guild you would get coin, or some other Guild would give cards.

It would be difficult to balance cards like that though.
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 02:04:16 am »
+1

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

That one should be called the "Toastmaster's guild."  You know, because they celebrate everything!

I really like your general idea though.  Contrary to eHalycon, I really like the idea that the Guilds could apply to all kingdom cards, because they become more significant (though even harder to balance).  I'm not sure whether they even need to be purchasable -- they could just exist outside the supply and have the stated effect on the entire game.  Like, whenever you use a card from the Guild expansion, you put out a randomly selected Guild card, which has its effect on the whole kingdom for the whole game.  That design has the benefit that all players still see an even field.  If you could buy the toastmasters guild for yourself, and your opponent can't have it, then scout and crossroads become insane for you, but normal for your opponent. 

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 02:05:19 am by engineer »
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blueblimp

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2012, 02:07:30 am »
0

It'd be a little surprising to never see any sort of permanent effect in Dominion. They're common enough in games like this, and it seems like they'd fit well enough. If Guikds has no permanents, maybe Donald X just dislikes permanents?
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Scissors61

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2012, 02:10:10 am »
0

I think Guilds being a prize type card is entirely possible, but I think their powers will be based on player interaction. For instance:
Example Guild 0*
You and one other player each choose an action card from each others hand, andreplace it with a card from the supply costing the same.

Two things. First, before you get on my back about the "no politics" rule, this was just an example of my thoughts, not a card idea.
Second, I put 0* as the price because I think there will be either an action card(a la Tournament) or a requirement (e.g. Trash a Province) to get them.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2012, 02:14:30 am »
0

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

I would be more appreciative of "applies to all cards" effects if it was done like this -- applying to everyone, with an activation cost.

Also, I would suggest this as a basis for a future mini-set design contest.  In another thread we talked about how official expansions are often fairly groundbreaking (e.g. introduction of Durations, Potions, Ruins).  The in-progress set doesn't do that because we can't exactly introduce a whole new mechanic via individual submissions.  This would be a very interesting mechanic to explore as a community.  Of course, if Guilds doesn't do something like it, we'd need to come up with a name for it besides Guilds. :P
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2012, 02:28:47 am »
0

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

I would be more appreciative of "applies to all cards" effects if it was done like this -- applying to everyone, with an activation cost.

Also, I would suggest this as a basis for a future mini-set design contest.  In another thread we talked about how official expansions are often fairly groundbreaking (e.g. introduction of Durations, Potions, Ruins).  The in-progress set doesn't do that because we can't exactly introduce a whole new mechanic via individual submissions.  This would be a very interesting mechanic to explore as a community.  Of course, if Guilds doesn't do something like it, we'd need to come up with a name for it besides Guilds. :P

Come to think of it, this would be a super-easy fan expansion for people to actually use, too.  Since the guilds cards don't go in the deck, you don't have to worry about how to actually fabricate the fan cards for play.  You could just print out the guilds (or whatever we call them), and then set the selected guild next to the kingdom piles for reference.
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alex

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2012, 11:23:29 am »
0

This is my idea for guilds type cards:

eg: silversmiths guild Action $4
+$2
Any other player may reveal and put into play a silversmiths guild, if they do they draw a card and you gain +1 buy
-----
If this card is in play at the start of your turn +$2, +1 buy

Note that the if this card starts in play clause does not require an action, just like duration cards.

I feel that this works thematically as guilds will succeed when they work together, or fail when they fall apart.
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Scissors61

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2012, 03:23:09 pm »
0

Maybe we're at the island of conclusions here. Instead of guilds cards, there might just be more base treasures and VP; such as Platinum and Colonies. Could be some thing like, say, Customers for VP and Guildsmen for treasure.
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ednever

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
0

What about something along thr lines of DXV's gauntlet game?

What if Guilds were available to be bid on at the Stewart of the game? You could be a member of the carpenters guild, but you would have to add a curse to your deck. Or join the mason guild but have to add an estate and remove a copper.

(sometimes the starting condition changes would be an advantage for a particular kingfom, but that's the great thing about dominion is knowing when to join the right guild based on the kingdom available...)

Ed
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ConMan

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2012, 07:55:39 pm »
0

In the spirit of looking for crazy possible mechanics by taking a core assumption about how the game plays and nullifying it, I'm going to suggest the following as space where Guilds could go:

Normal rule: The game ends when Provinces, Colonies or any three piles are empty.
Guilds: There will be another means to end the game - based on a "Guild" card in the centre of the table, if certain conditions are met (player earns 50 coins in a single turn) the game ends at the end of that turn.

Normal rule: The player with the most points wins, with turn order helping in the event of a tie.
Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2012, 08:14:40 pm »
0

Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
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ConMan

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2012, 11:55:12 pm »
0

Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
Hmm, good point. I wonder if there are other meaningful win conditions that aren't currently encoded into alt-vp cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2012, 02:23:01 pm »
+1

Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
Hmm, good point. I wonder if there are other meaningful win conditions that aren't currently encoded into alt-vp cards.

Most actions played in a turn.  Most coin fielded in a turn.  Most cards trashed.  Smallest deck.  Most Curses.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2012, 03:58:33 pm »
0

If I remember correctly, Walled Village is a Guilds outtake. Take from that what you will, but I think it indicates that Guilds will mostly (or entirely) consist of normal Kingdom cards that will add to the strategy space of the game (which is good), but won't fundamentally change how the game works (which is also good).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2012, 04:16:10 pm »
0

If I remember correctly, Walled Village is a Guilds outtake. Take from that what you will, but I think it indicates that Guilds will mostly (or entirely) consist of normal Kingdom cards that will add to the strategy space of the game (which is good), but won't fundamentally change how the game works (which is also good).

Walled Village, huh.

Maybe "save it for later" or "when you need it" mechanics?  WV is a when-you-need-it Village, in that you can keep kicking it back until you actually use the extra actions.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2012, 01:00:29 am »
0

I really hope Donald prints the "Worth X VP per empty supply pile" or "Worth X VP per Curse card in your deck"

The latter is less likely, but versions of the former has been a part of many fan cards. It seems to be the only Victory cards left that he could make without doing any weird/long wording.
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