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Author Topic: Looking to the future: The Guilds  (Read 19392 times)

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Scissors61

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Looking to the future: The Guilds
« on: August 17, 2012, 01:10:19 pm »
0

Now that we have Dark Ages, I'm already excited for Guilds.
I have no idea what's coming, but I suspect player interaction.
Anywho, post speculation below. I really can't wait to see The Guilds and I'm sure Donald X. will not disappoint.
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pauley_walnuts

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 01:17:09 pm »
+4

This has been brought up in other topics already, but the ability to lower the cost of a single card as opposed to all cards seems likely based on the Rules description for Band of Misfits.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 01:52:36 pm »
+1

This has been brought up in other topics already, but the ability to lower the cost of a single card as opposed to all cards seems likely based on the Rules description for Band of Misfits.

(Or perhaps to raise the cost of a single card.)
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pauley_walnuts

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 01:56:37 pm »
0

So this idea might be a bit out there, but since the title of the next expansion is Guilds, could it be possible for cards to have effects based on cards from previous expansions.

For instance,

Bankers' Guild
+$1 for every card from Prosperity in the supply.
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 02:04:55 pm »
+1

So this idea might be a bit out there, but since the title of the next expansion is Guilds, could it be possible for cards to have effects based on cards from previous expansions.

For instance,

Bankers' Guild
+$1 for every card from Prosperity in the supply.

I wouldn't like cards that reference other expansions explicitly, but it would be neat to see new cards that use old mechanics: potion cost cards, durations, etc.
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agrajag

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 02:12:33 pm »
+1

I'm sort of expecting cards that stay out in play permanently, or until you play another card of the same type which replaces it. E.g. a bunch of cards with type "Guild" that have some effect while in play (similar to bridge or goons). Guilds are not removed during the cleanup phase. If you play a card of type Guild, immediately discard all Guilds you currently have in play.
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Rhombus

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 03:24:47 pm »
0

Perhaps permanent play cards like:

At the end of your clean-up phase, gain a copper/silver.

At the end of your clean-up phase, +1 VP. (unlikely)

All other players may only draw 4 cards during their clean-up phase.

+1 Buy on your turn.

+$x on your turn.

+x Actions on your turn.

Long-lasting bridge type effects.  Or possibly even a marker like Embargo coins that signifies cards that have been raised or lowered in price for all players.  Picture artificially creating $1 or $8 or $9 actions.  A $12 Province, a $9 Colony, etc.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 03:45:59 pm »
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I'll be the first to say...

How big of an impact can a small 150 card (possible 13 Kingdoms) set have?  DX has surprised me almost every time but c'mon.  Especially after the size and variety of DA.
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Tmwinand

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 03:48:21 pm »
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Maybe we'll get some more clues from the Dark Age secret history.  All those cards that "were moved to later set" we haven't seen in DA must be in Guilds!
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Scissors61

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 03:54:38 pm »
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This has been brought up in other topics already, but the ability to lower the cost of a single card as opposed to all cards seems likely based on the Rules description for Band of Misfits.
This would be hard to balance. If Guild cards are anything like what the wild mass guessing says, it could turn BoM into a real swingy card. In order to balance this, the cost reducing card would need to be expensive. If it costs that much, you might as well buy the card and use your BoM for combos with that card.
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Davio

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 04:14:45 pm »
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Maybe there will be cards from some guilds that interact well with (give bonuses to) other cards from that guild?

A very simple example to illustrate my point:

Banker
Action - Merchant's Guild
+$1 for every Merchant's Guild card you have in play

Retailer
Action - Merchant's Guild
Gain a card costing up to $3 (+$1 more for every Merchant's Guild card you have in play)

And setup instructions are to include all cards from one guild or none.

Other guilds could be the thieves guild, the craftmans guild etc..
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Tmwinand

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 04:16:21 pm »
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When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 04:44:40 pm »
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When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare. :P
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HMJACK707

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 01:09:37 pm »
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What if all or a lot of the cards are like knights? Each stack is a different guild and each card in the stack has cards that benefits each other from that stack in some way shape or form. I guess that could be a pretty big balancing issue though. They would have to not be great bonuses or else every game with them would just turn into a race to grab them.
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Young Nick

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 01:12:12 pm »
+3

When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare. :P

Whenever someone says there is a balance issue with a variant, I just sit back and wait for DXV to prove them horribly wrong.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 01:12:56 pm »
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What if all or a lot of the cards are like knights? Each stack is a different guild and each card in the stack has cards that benefits each other from that stack in some way shape or form. I guess that could be a pretty big balancing issue though. They would have to not be great bonuses or else every game with them would just turn into a race to grab them.

I think Knights are a one time deal.
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Davio

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 01:20:09 pm »
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What if all or a lot of the cards are like knights? Each stack is a different guild and each card in the stack has cards that benefits each other from that stack in some way shape or form. I guess that could be a pretty big balancing issue though. They would have to not be great bonuses or else every game with them would just turn into a race to grab them.
Knights may have seemed like a one time deal, but I think something like this may be fun.

A stack of Craftsman guild cards could have such innocent cards as:

Blacksmith
Action - Craftsman guild
+1 Card
+1 Card for every Craftsman guild card you have in play

Booming Village
Action - Craftsman guild
+1 Action
+1 Action for every Craftsman guild card you have in play

So on their own these cards are like Ruins, but combined they can be pretty nice.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 01:38:51 pm »
+2

I think I read somewhere that Donald X originally wanted each Guild to have its own special cost, though in the end that only ended up happening with the alchemists.  Not sure if that will be resurrected for the expansion next spring.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 01:40:20 pm »
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Yeah, it would be a strong counter balance to dark ages too. If there are any trash for benefit cards in the kingdom it will more or less make you pick a guilds strategy or a more traditional one.
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Donald X.

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2012, 01:42:53 pm »
+4

When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare. :P

Whenever someone says there is a balance issue with a variant, I just sit back and wait for DXV to prove them horribly wrong.
Well I already made "actions played after this give +$1." It turned into Horn of Plenty.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 02:42:09 pm »
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I'd imagine there being 4 guilds with 3 cards each, and they could be tied together with a victory card, maybe something like 

Community
Victory
Cost: 4
Choose a card type. Worth 1 VP for every full set of a card type available in the supply (if that set contains at least 3 cards).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 02:43:51 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Axe Knight

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 06:18:03 pm »
0

I thought about future expansions awhile back, and there were two things I thought may pop at one point.  One were "hero"-type cards, and what I had in mind almost precisely happened with the knights in Dark Ages.  The other one is almost like a permanent duration and gives players certain attributes and powerups depending which card you get.  We'll call them guilds, why not?  Each player would only be allowed to "enter" one guild.  For example,

Guild of Lenders:

For the remainder of the game, during your buy phase, +$2. 

Guild of Smithies:

For the remainder of the game, except after cleanup, when you draw any number of cards, draw an extra card.

etc.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 06:21:37 pm by Axe Knight »
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rinkworks

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 07:56:49 pm »
+2

When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare. :P

Whenever someone says there is a balance issue with a variant, I just sit back and wait for DXV to prove them horribly wrong.

I don't think "balance nightmare" and "DXV balancing something correctly" are mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 07:59:08 pm by rinkworks »
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2012, 08:08:01 pm »
0

When I first heard about guilds, I thought about "Village Guild" or "Library Guild" which have an effect like "All cards played after this card have +Action or + 1 Card added to the beginning of their text."

I am pretty sure this would be a balance nightmare. :P

Whenever someone says there is a balance issue with a variant, I just sit back and wait for DXV to prove them horribly wrong.

I don't think "balance nightmare" and "DXV balancing something correctly" are mutually exclusive.

It's all about playtesting.  Donald has the ability to playtest his ideas far beyond the degree available to most fans.  Some of the cards in DA look crazy to me, like they will break the game.  But I believe that they are balanced -- not because Donald is just a brilliant mastermind who sees how it all works, but because he's able to playtest, fix, and retest these cards until he's convinced that they work, they're fun, and they almost never break the game. (I say "almost never" because, hey, it's fun to break the game occasionally.)
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axlemn

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 03:22:09 pm »
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There was a Friendship is Magic fan expansion which dealt with 'Friendship Tokens'.  Hear me out.  They were usually gained through pretty lousy terminals, but for every 2 in your pile, you could start off every turn with drawing 1 more card.  Permanent Wharves. 

I think the concept or something similar will be playtested at some point.  Though perhaps that's already happened with Seaside? 
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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 03:37:13 pm »
+1

There was a Friendship is Magic fan expansion which dealt with 'Friendship Tokens'.  Hear me out.  They were usually gained through pretty lousy terminals, but for every 2 in your pile, you could start off every turn with drawing 1 more card.  Permanent Wharves. 

I think the concept or something similar will be playtested at some point.  Though perhaps that's already happened with Seaside?

Given that this is a small expansion, and we haven't seen tokens since Prosperity, I'm guessing there won't be.

What I'm curious is to whether this will simply be a few new cards related to a central theme (a la Cornucopia), or a few new cards that all hinge on a new mechanic (a la Alchemy).
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Scissors61

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 11:25:30 pm »
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It could be a mix of the two. But if not, I hope it's a new mechanic introduced. Those are usually fun.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 11:58:40 pm »
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I severely doubt the guilds mechanic is a linear mechanic (I read Magic: The Gathering design articles) that relies on certain other cards without some kind of safeguard that they end up in the same kingdom. Why would anyone in their right mind use a linear mechanic in an 8th or last set? DXV might have considered it (Alchemy probably was one of the last sets before it is bumped), but it is likely good to keep linear cards in middle expansions. If there is a linear aspect to the mechanic, the cards themselves will make sure the cards they are impacted by end up in the same kingdom. For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 12:01:48 am »
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I severely doubt the guilds mechanic is a linear mechanic (I read Magic: The Gathering design articles) that relies on certain other cards without some kind of safeguard that they end up in the same kingdom. Why would anyone in their right mind use a linear mechanic in an 8th or last set? DXV might have considered it (Alchemy probably was one of the last sets before it is bumped), but it is likely good to keep linear cards in middle expansions. If there is a linear aspect to the mechanic, the cards themselves will make sure the cards they are impacted by end up in the same kingdom. For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.

Good point, we have a very linear card built for one expansion, and we all know how that worked out. Scout.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:47 am »
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Well, one mechanic that we haven't seen is cards that "power up" themselves (a la trade route, city) separately for each player.  I mean, gardens and other alt-vp cards do that, but they're just VP.  Phil stone does that, but it's just money.  What if you had an action card that got more powerful as your deck got bigger?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 01:21:03 am »
+2

Well, one mechanic that we haven't seen is cards that "power up" themselves (a la trade route, city) separately for each player.  I mean, gardens and other alt-vp cards do that, but they're just VP.  Phil stone does that, but it's just money.  What if you had an action card that got more powerful as your deck got bigger?

Pirate Ship sort is an individual "power up" card. 

I wouldn't like a Gardens-esque power-up action card.  I imagine Philo Stone is pretty annoying to play IRL.  An action that requires you to count your deck would be annoying too. :P
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 01:30:43 am »
+1

For example, cards that pull up a stack of guildsmen cards whenever they are in the kingdom. Think how madman or mercenaries or prizes work.

No way in hell.  Guilds will only have 150 cards.  At the most, that means 13 kingdom cards.  That's little enough to have any chance of appearing in a random setup.  Having just one kingdom card that interacts with, say, 3 other guildsmen, would drop that down to 10 kingdom cards.  There's just not enough room in a small expansion to pull off a Madman/Mercernary style thing.  Dark Ages was only able to do so because it's EXTRA large.

I imagine Philo Stone is pretty annoying to play IRL.

It is, but not as much as you'd think.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 01:37:06 am »
+3

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 01:40:35 am »
0

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

A card to make Scout overpowered!!! Yes, what I have always wanted!
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 01:56:31 am »
0

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

I like this idea, with the caveat that the Guilds bonus applies only to Guilds set cards (maybe all of them, maybe not). 

As a very rudimentary example, maybe there is a vanilla Guilds card, Journeyman that gives "+1 action, +2 Guild bonus".  And then if you chose Merchant Guild you would get coin, or some other Guild would give cards.

It would be difficult to balance cards like that though.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 02:04:16 am »
+1

Personally, given just how a 150 card expansion would have to work, this is my thought:

130 kingdom cards + 13 randomizers leaves room for 7 more cards.  These 7 will be the Guilds referenced in the title.  Each kingdom card will reference Guilds in a vague way, so it will apply to any of them.  Whenever a Guilds kingdom card is out, the stack of Guild cards will be put out, like the Prizes.  They'll have a higher cost (let's say $7), and when you reach $7, you can purchase a Guild - only one per player.  Depending on which Guild you choose, it will provide a bonus to every Guilds kingdom card in your deck.  For example, it might make every card in your deck part Victory (making Scout even more overpowered!).

That one should be called the "Toastmaster's guild."  You know, because they celebrate everything!

I really like your general idea though.  Contrary to eHalycon, I really like the idea that the Guilds could apply to all kingdom cards, because they become more significant (though even harder to balance).  I'm not sure whether they even need to be purchasable -- they could just exist outside the supply and have the stated effect on the entire game.  Like, whenever you use a card from the Guild expansion, you put out a randomly selected Guild card, which has its effect on the whole kingdom for the whole game.  That design has the benefit that all players still see an even field.  If you could buy the toastmasters guild for yourself, and your opponent can't have it, then scout and crossroads become insane for you, but normal for your opponent. 

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 02:05:19 am by engineer »
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blueblimp

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2012, 02:07:30 am »
0

It'd be a little surprising to never see any sort of permanent effect in Dominion. They're common enough in games like this, and it seems like they'd fit well enough. If Guikds has no permanents, maybe Donald X just dislikes permanents?
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2012, 02:10:10 am »
0

I think Guilds being a prize type card is entirely possible, but I think their powers will be based on player interaction. For instance:
Example Guild 0*
You and one other player each choose an action card from each others hand, andreplace it with a card from the supply costing the same.

Two things. First, before you get on my back about the "no politics" rule, this was just an example of my thoughts, not a card idea.
Second, I put 0* as the price because I think there will be either an action card(a la Tournament) or a requirement (e.g. Trash a Province) to get them.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2012, 02:14:30 am »
0

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

I would be more appreciative of "applies to all cards" effects if it was done like this -- applying to everyone, with an activation cost.

Also, I would suggest this as a basis for a future mini-set design contest.  In another thread we talked about how official expansions are often fairly groundbreaking (e.g. introduction of Durations, Potions, Ruins).  The in-progress set doesn't do that because we can't exactly introduce a whole new mechanic via individual submissions.  This would be a very interesting mechanic to explore as a community.  Of course, if Guilds doesn't do something like it, we'd need to come up with a name for it besides Guilds. :P
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engineer

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2012, 02:28:47 am »
0

If the always-out design is used, the guild should be an optional effect that requires some cost to activate.  For example, if the Toastmaster's guild is in play, then at the beginning of each turn, you may discard a copper to receive the toastmaster's guild effect for the rest of your turn.

Edit: I really like this idea.  If Guilds doesn't do this, I might try to do a fan expansion implementing this mechanic.

I would be more appreciative of "applies to all cards" effects if it was done like this -- applying to everyone, with an activation cost.

Also, I would suggest this as a basis for a future mini-set design contest.  In another thread we talked about how official expansions are often fairly groundbreaking (e.g. introduction of Durations, Potions, Ruins).  The in-progress set doesn't do that because we can't exactly introduce a whole new mechanic via individual submissions.  This would be a very interesting mechanic to explore as a community.  Of course, if Guilds doesn't do something like it, we'd need to come up with a name for it besides Guilds. :P

Come to think of it, this would be a super-easy fan expansion for people to actually use, too.  Since the guilds cards don't go in the deck, you don't have to worry about how to actually fabricate the fan cards for play.  You could just print out the guilds (or whatever we call them), and then set the selected guild next to the kingdom piles for reference.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2012, 11:23:29 am »
0

This is my idea for guilds type cards:

eg: silversmiths guild Action $4
+$2
Any other player may reveal and put into play a silversmiths guild, if they do they draw a card and you gain +1 buy
-----
If this card is in play at the start of your turn +$2, +1 buy

Note that the if this card starts in play clause does not require an action, just like duration cards.

I feel that this works thematically as guilds will succeed when they work together, or fail when they fall apart.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2012, 03:23:09 pm »
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Maybe we're at the island of conclusions here. Instead of guilds cards, there might just be more base treasures and VP; such as Platinum and Colonies. Could be some thing like, say, Customers for VP and Guildsmen for treasure.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
0

What about something along thr lines of DXV's gauntlet game?

What if Guilds were available to be bid on at the Stewart of the game? You could be a member of the carpenters guild, but you would have to add a curse to your deck. Or join the mason guild but have to add an estate and remove a copper.

(sometimes the starting condition changes would be an advantage for a particular kingfom, but that's the great thing about dominion is knowing when to join the right guild based on the kingdom available...)

Ed
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2012, 07:55:39 pm »
0

In the spirit of looking for crazy possible mechanics by taking a core assumption about how the game plays and nullifying it, I'm going to suggest the following as space where Guilds could go:

Normal rule: The game ends when Provinces, Colonies or any three piles are empty.
Guilds: There will be another means to end the game - based on a "Guild" card in the centre of the table, if certain conditions are met (player earns 50 coins in a single turn) the game ends at the end of that turn.

Normal rule: The player with the most points wins, with turn order helping in the event of a tie.
Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2012, 08:14:40 pm »
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Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2012, 11:55:12 pm »
0

Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
Hmm, good point. I wonder if there are other meaningful win conditions that aren't currently encoded into alt-vp cards.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2012, 02:23:01 pm »
+1

Guilds: The Guild card will state an alternative win condition - e.g. lowest score wins (Beggars Guild), most coin in deck wins (Merchants Guild), most Action cards in deck wins (Labourers Guild)

That's like alt-vp, except weirder. Most-actions = Vineyard, most-cards = gardens, most-treasure = feodum. Or, at least, that's the spirit of those cards.
Hmm, good point. I wonder if there are other meaningful win conditions that aren't currently encoded into alt-vp cards.

Most actions played in a turn.  Most coin fielded in a turn.  Most cards trashed.  Smallest deck.  Most Curses.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2012, 03:58:33 pm »
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If I remember correctly, Walled Village is a Guilds outtake. Take from that what you will, but I think it indicates that Guilds will mostly (or entirely) consist of normal Kingdom cards that will add to the strategy space of the game (which is good), but won't fundamentally change how the game works (which is also good).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2012, 04:16:10 pm »
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If I remember correctly, Walled Village is a Guilds outtake. Take from that what you will, but I think it indicates that Guilds will mostly (or entirely) consist of normal Kingdom cards that will add to the strategy space of the game (which is good), but won't fundamentally change how the game works (which is also good).

Walled Village, huh.

Maybe "save it for later" or "when you need it" mechanics?  WV is a when-you-need-it Village, in that you can keep kicking it back until you actually use the extra actions.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2012, 01:00:29 am »
0

I really hope Donald prints the "Worth X VP per empty supply pile" or "Worth X VP per Curse card in your deck"

The latter is less likely, but versions of the former has been a part of many fan cards. It seems to be the only Victory cards left that he could make without doing any weird/long wording.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2012, 02:02:09 am »
0

Other alt-VPs:

"This card is worth 1 VP if the game ended on your turn, or 2 VP otherwise"?

Or, to steal a mechanic from Tanto Cuore, "If you have at least two copies of this card in your deck, then if there are an odd number this is worth 2 VP, and if there are an even number it is worth -2 VP."

Action-Victory - "Trash this card. (Possible benefit). This card is worth 1 VP for every copy of it in the Trash."

Another Tanto Cuore one, three distinct cards (although for Dominion you'd probably have to reduce that to two). Each has a reasonable benefit on their own, but has a bonus if you get sets of them.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2012, 02:07:47 am »
0

For the first one: That one could be interesting. Could warp endgame situations which would be fun

The 2nd: That would be a fun fan card, as I doubt Donald would print something that swingy, and it's fairly easy to keep track of how much of each card you have in your deck.

The 3rd: I would be surprised if Donald made a card like that. It's one that he hasn't done, but if he was going to do it, he would have already done it in DA.

4th: I don't think I understand how this one works. Explain?
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ConMan

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2012, 02:51:52 am »
0

For the first one: That one could be interesting. Could warp endgame situations which would be fun
That's what I was thinking :)

Quote
The 2nd: That would be a fun fan card, as I doubt Donald would print something that swingy, and it's fairly easy to keep track of how much of each card you have in your deck.
I agree on all counts. And it introduces a little extra strategy in terms of how many you buy (a side-note - the TC card also had on-play effects, as most of them do, and IIRC it was a Peddler-variant).

Quote
The 3rd: I would be surprised if Donald made a card like that. It's one that he hasn't done, but if he was going to do it, he would have already done it in DA.
Yeah, as I wrote it I realised that it would have been DA.

Quote
4th: I don't think I understand how this one works. Explain?
The way it works in TC is like this - there are three sisters, Azure, Viola and Rouge Crescent. Each has the same cost, and is worth 1VP on their own - and one has a +1 Card, another a +1 Action, the third +$1. However, if you can "chamber" them (a mechanism on some cards that's like a self-Island), then any set of two different sisters you have is worth a bonus 3VP (for a total of 5VP), while any set of three is worth a bonus 7VP (for a total of 10VP). So if your chambers contain one Azure, two Viola and three Rouge, then you have one set of three (Azure+Viola+Rouge = 10VP), one pair (Viola+Rouge = 5VP) and one Rouge left over (1VP) for a total of 16.

However, if you choose a random set of cards, you're not guaranteed to have all three in any given game, which means that if they are all there they tend to dominate any strategy, whereas if only one or two is they're pretty worthless. Hence why I'd think that a Dominion version would probably only have two, and the on-play bonus would probably be a bit stronger.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2012, 03:02:46 am »
+1

I would be sort of worried about #1 creating a situation where whoever ends the game loses.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2012, 03:43:29 am »
0

Action-Victory - "Trash this card. (Possible benefit). This card is worth 1 VP for every copy of it in the Trash."

I think this suffers from the same problem as Trade Route and Forager, except it is worse because it has to do with VP.  Trashing the card is typically bad for you because the benefit it confers is universal.  Why should I trash my [card] and boost yours, while losing one of my own?  The "possible benefit" would have to be good enough to justify it.
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PSGarak

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2012, 11:29:11 am »
+9

Tulip Farm: This card is worth 1VP for every copy of Tulip Farm remaining in the supply at the end of the game.

You get to re-enact your very own Dutch speculative tulip bubble! Complete with them being completely worthless at the end.
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ConMan

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2012, 07:53:45 pm »
0

I would be sort of worried about #1 creating a situation where whoever ends the game loses.
I agree that it's probably not a great idea in itself - clearly, if you're fairly confident that you haven't won, but that you still have a chance to win, you're not going to end the game, and so instead you're going to try to prolong it (by buying something else or nothing at all), resulting either in someone pulling a win from somewhere else, or the game going on forever because no-one is willing to end it. But it's an area which hasn't been explored, which is why I'm putting it out there to try to work out what *could* work. We know that DXV has deliberately tried to maintain as much symmetry in the game as possible, so the main initial asymmetries are which player starts and how the opening hands are split, and the main ending asymmetry is in which player ends the game. So while the opening hand split has been affected by some mechanics (cards like Nomad Camp in Hinterlands and Shelters in Dark Ages), there hasn't been much looking at player order. Is there a non-broken way to incorporate that into a mechanic, particularly in terms of alt-VP?
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Tombolo

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2012, 05:54:47 pm »
+1

Dutch speculative tulip bubble!

Things I didn't expect to learn about on the dominion forums!  Or to exist, for that matter.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2012, 06:54:12 pm »
0

Tulip Farm: This card is worth 1VP for every copy of Tulip Farm remaining in the supply at the end of the game.

You get to re-enact your very own Dutch speculative tulip bubble! Complete with them being completely worthless at the end.

I like this. Would be fun to see your opponent going for them, then buy out the pile on a megaturn and trash them all with watchtower.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2012, 10:32:23 pm »
+3

-sigh-
this is, without a doubt, the most over-analytical forum ive ever been on.
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ConMan

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2012, 10:52:46 pm »
0

-sigh-
this is, without a doubt, the most over-analytical forum ive ever been on.
Really? I frequent the xkcd forums, including the Math and Science subforums, and they'd be able to give you a comprehensive list of all the factors you need to consider when measuring the airspeed of an unladen swallow.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2012, 01:51:14 am »
0

Tulip Farm: This card is worth 1VP for every copy of Tulip Farm remaining in the supply at the end of the game.

You get to re-enact your very own Dutch speculative tulip bubble! Complete with them being completely worthless at the end.

That is an interesting victory card for sure.
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Davio

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2012, 04:33:59 am »
0

Dutch speculative tulip bubble!

Things I didn't expect to learn about on the dominion forums!  Or to exist, for that matter.
Oh yeah, it's a classic example proving that anything can be worth everything.

You could sell a tulip for a house in those days.

I sometimes watch those pawn and auction shows, it's crazy what people will pay for certain stuff...
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enquerencia

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2012, 05:56:08 am »
0

I'm a bit late to this thread, but wanted to chime in because I too have been sorta tortured by my attempts to imagine what Guilds is all about with nothing to go by but its title. 

I imagined at first that there would be guilds based around existing card types.  Because Dominion only has a few groups of card types that are definitively labelled on the cards (action, victory, treasure, reaction, duration, looter... I think that's it, but I don't want to look it up) I imagined that the guilds would be based around this, like Labor guild, Banker guild, Prospector's guild, etc., and I know that if this is the case Donald has better names for these guilds than I do.  But if that IS the case, then I kind of think that there will be guilds cards of a single copy each (if my list of card types is complete then it only needs one more card type to reach seven, which could theoretically be a new card type introduced in guilds), and either all are out or none.  And I kinda think they will have a permanent effect.  I know most of this has been postulated in previous posts.  I don't want to take credit for it, but to those of you who have made these predictions, I agree with you. 

So, this thing comes out in spring, right?  That's a long time to speculate.  By the time it comes out I imagine this community will have designed an entire fan expansion based on our collective theories about the real one.

P.S. I love the Tulip Farm card idea.  I would love to see how this plays in real life.  You obviously don't want to buy the last one unless you don't have any or are just trying to destroy the other player's strategy, but you also don't want to let your opponent have only one or two. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:10:48 am by enquerencia »
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Davio

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2012, 07:05:03 am »
0

This is building on enquerencia's idea to add some more speculation. :)

Well, other than having copies of the same card in a pile, we've now seen cards with different copies, like Ruins and Knights.

If this were to carry over to Guilds, it might mean that a single stack (of 10) is effectively a Guild that gives bonuses to other cards from that stack. So you may want to dip into the pile, but you have to plough through first.

The first card you buy will be like a lvl 1 City. If you buy another you get 2 lvl 2 Cities, you catch my drift.

Example:

Worker's Guild, including:

Something Something Village
Action - Worker's Guild

+1 Card
+1 Action for every Worker's Guild card you have in play, including this.

So that's a unique card, another unique:

Union house
Action - Worker's Guild

+1 Action
+1 Card for every Worker's Guild card you have in play, including this.


Okay, those examples are about the easiest I could think of, so don't criticize any blatant strategic errors please.
I think it's funny because the play order matters. If you play the Village first, you get an extra card from the Union House.
Do it the other way around and you get an extra action.
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enquerencia

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2012, 07:12:30 am »
0

Davio, I was actually thinking that the guilds would work with cards that weren't from Guilds, so like, Action cards would be part of a guild and treasure cards would be part of a guild, etc., and that Guilds the expansion would include a new type of card and it would be a guild too.  And by meeting some requirement to become a member of a guild you would then gain some kind of bonus for playing cards of that guild type, or in the case of victory cards, get a vp bonus for being a member of that guild. 

The thing is, most Kingdoms are almost exclusively action cards, so the action guild would be pre......etty desirable.
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Davio

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2012, 07:13:37 am »
0

I see. Okay, well, another possibility added. :)
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2012, 10:38:45 am »
0

(action, victory, treasure, reaction, duration, looter... I think that's it, but I don't want to look it up)

Also Curse, Attack, Prize, Knight, and Shelter.
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werothegreat

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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2012, 05:20:31 pm »
+7

I spit-took when I saw the new "Guilds previews" forum.  Then I was heavily depressed when I saw there weren't actually any previews.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2012, 06:35:53 pm »
0

I would really love to see an alternative curse card with the curse type. Ruins don't count.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2012, 07:03:26 pm »
+2

I would really love to see an alternative curse card with the curse type. Ruins don't count.

Man, why would you love to see that? Is it because you enjoy rules-related confusion? :P
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2012, 04:59:14 am »
+1

I would really love to see an alternative curse card with the curse type. Ruins don't count.

Man, why would you love to see that? Is it because you enjoy rules-related confusion? :P

Yup. And, I also want a curse variant that says curse on it.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2012, 05:39:07 am »
+1

I would really love to see an alternative curse card with the curse type. Ruins don't count.

Man, why would you love to see that? Is it because you enjoy rules-related confusion? :P

Yup. And, I also want a curse variant that says curse on it.
This will never happen.

Imagine a Sea Hag slog with not 10, but 20 Curses! It will last 50 turns!
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2012, 09:32:49 am »
+2

I spit-took when I saw the new "Guilds previews" forum.  Then I was heavily depressed when I saw there weren't actually any previews.


Mostly I just like to see everyone's speculations :D  I imagine DXV must find it amusing too.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2012, 09:45:00 am »
0

I'm sure DXV is the most amused of all of us.  If I were him I'd have a very hard time reading all this and not saying things like "You are so CLOSE.... but no, it's not like that at all."

I would be deeply disappointed if Guilds didn't have some kind of new mechanic in it though.  I think it's safe to say, based on the fact that Base was released first, it probably doesn't have any new tokens or mats or any kind of platinum/colony type additions.  I do really like the idea that it might have some kind of permanent effect options, and I think that it would be really cool if there were guilds you could become a member of by meeting some kind of requirement (like trashing a province, as was mentioned a few posts back), and that being a member of a guild would give you some kind of bonus that wasn't dependent on there being a lot of cards from Guilds in the kingdom.

Time will make fools of us all, I suspect. 

Well, time and Donald.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2012, 09:49:52 am »
0

To add to the speculation, i think there will be a card costing 10*, then all costs from 0-11 will be covered.

I also no longer expect a card named "Archivist" to show up. I remember when i looked at my councilroom card stats long ago, that this card showed up amongst all other cards. It had a very low number of played games besides it, so i assumed it beeing a card in testing that somehow slipped through.

The win rates of Archivist were about 0.95 if i remember correctly, so it might be not the new power card.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:08:41 am by loppo »
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2012, 09:50:59 am »
0

Archivist was a fan-made card designed by rinkworks that won a competition and so was on iso for a while.

IIRC it was something like: +1 Action, Choose one: draw up to 6 or discard any number of cards and +$1 per card discarded.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 09:52:45 am by Jimmmmm »
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2012, 09:53:46 am »
0

Archivist was a fan-made card designed by rinkworks that won a competition and so was on iso for a while.

IIRC it was something like: +1 Action, Choose one: draw up to 6 or discard any number cards and +$1 per card discarded.
Haha, yes, something like that.

I organized this competition and as a surprise bonus I PM'd Dougz if he would implement this card on Iso and he did.
It was up there for a month or 2 or so before he removed it.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2012, 11:26:06 am »
0

I spit-took when I saw the new "Guilds previews" forum.  Then I was heavily depressed when I saw there weren't actually any previews.


Mostly I just like to see everyone's speculations :D  I imagine DXV must find it amusing too.

Probably not quite as much as when he read the Fan Variants cards and kept reading 'No cards that deal with the trash' !
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2012, 11:42:55 am »
+2

Well, DA has changed so many things:

Additional card types, $1 cards, replacing starting cards, unique cards, man.

So I don't think anything said here is too outrageous.
Heck, it could even have 150 unique cards which each add something totally new, but that makes it pretty expensive to print.

I just hope it's fun and offers some good new stuff and isn't just an expansion "to complete the collection".

BTW: Guilds is the last planned expansion for now, but if RGG wants more (money, that is), Donald said that he likes being nice (getting paid  ;)) and might not refuse, so who knows?

Maybe it will end up like Magic and we will think to ourselves: "I got into this, because it wasn't like Magic. But now I'm 20 expansions further and $700 poorer, so... I dunnow."
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2012, 12:32:13 pm »
0

I thought Donald said a Dominion 2 is far more likely than additional expansions because he can tweak rules and stuff that would allow him to make cards he couldn't otherwise make.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2012, 03:22:02 pm »
+3

I spit-took when I saw the new "Guilds previews" forum.  Then I was heavily depressed when I saw there weren't actually any previews.


Mostly I just like to see everyone's speculations :D  I imagine DXV must find it amusing too.

Well, YOU know what the cards are.  :P
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2012, 05:58:05 pm »
+1

I will say this. I am in no rush to find out what cards are in Guilds. I want to play many DA games with all the sets first before I even begin worrying about Guilds. By the time, DA hit, I had already played a couple thousand or so games with all sets including Hinterlands, but with the way things with Goko are going, who knows if they will even have all the sets available by the time Guilds comes out.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2012, 06:18:41 pm »
0

And the more sets there are, the longer it takes to get in an appreciable number of games with the new cards if you're playing random from everything...
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2012, 07:08:01 pm »
+1

And the more sets there are, the longer it takes to get in an appreciable number of games with the new cards if you're playing random from everything...

Agreed. That's one reason I'm glad that Dark Ages has 35 Kingdom Cards.

Of course, when I play IRL, I use a randomizer that allows me to specify that half the cards come from Dark Ages.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2012, 11:01:54 pm »
+1

I will say this. I am in no rush to find out what cards are in Guilds. I want to play many DA games with all the sets first before I even begin worrying about Guilds. By the time, DA hit, I had already played a couple thousand or so games with all sets including Hinterlands, but with the way things with Goko are going, who knows if they will even have all the sets available by the time Guilds comes out.

It saddens me that Alchemy is going to be released last on Goko.  That's the one I most want to try Dark Ages things with...
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2012, 06:09:44 am »
+1

I will say this. I am in no rush to find out what cards are in Guilds. I want to play many DA games with all the sets first before I even begin worrying about Guilds. By the time, DA hit, I had already played a couple thousand or so games with all sets including Hinterlands, but with the way things with Goko are going, who knows if they will even have all the sets available by the time Guilds comes out.

It saddens me that Alchemy is going to be released last on Goko.  That's the one I most want to try Dark Ages things with...

I love Scrying Pool. But, it makes sense. Most casual Dominion players hate Alchemey because of Possession and also they don't like the strategic component potions add. A darn shame in my opinion because it is one of my favorite sets. With that said, Cornucopia has some nice cards that seem like they would go well with DA. Though, I can't wait for Hinterlands so I can Procession a Torturer gaining a Border Village gaining another Torturer because I am evil like that.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2012, 06:31:18 am »
0

Alchemy is my least favourite set because of Alchemist and Familiar, I actually like possession.
And I'm more interested to see the interactions with cornucopia (horn of plenty with Knights  :o) or Hinterlands (develop on cultist !)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 06:32:26 am by brokoli »
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2012, 08:16:06 am »
0

I think the main thing Alchemy adds is a non-trivial decision of whether or not you go for Potion cards, which I think is a good thing. Just picked up Alchemy, but unfortunately the others in my group are not really a fan.

So... Guilds?
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2012, 06:05:04 pm »
0

Alchemy is my least favourite set because of Alchemist and Familiar, I actually like possession.
And I'm more interested to see the interactions with cornucopia (horn of plenty with Knights  :o) or Hinterlands (develop on cultist !)

Alchemist is really overrated in my opinion. SP is so much better. But, Familiar is a pretty nasty attack, I will give you that.
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Re: Looking to the future: The Guilds
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2012, 04:48:20 pm »
+1

Alchemy is my least favourite set because of Alchemist and Familiar, I actually like possession.
And I'm more interested to see the interactions with cornucopia (horn of plenty with Knights  :o) or Hinterlands (develop on cultist !)

Alchemist is really overrated in my opinion. SP is so much better. But, Familiar is a pretty nasty attack, I will give you that.

Scrying Pool is better when you have trashing.  Without trashing, Alchemist is superior.
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