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Author Topic: Why is Curse a base card?  (Read 17686 times)

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NoMoreFun

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Why is Curse a base card?
« on: August 17, 2012, 12:47:52 am »
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We saw from Dark Ages a new type of "curse" entirely contained within that set. Why wasn't this done with the original "Curse" (rearranging the expansions so that "Curse" comes in a single expansion)? You could have saved room in the Base Set and Intrigue for more kingdom cards, and had a completely game changing expansion come out the other end.

The only thing I can think of is awkwardness with Familiar (but that could be fixed by making it a promo card) and a bit of redundancy like Witch and Young Witch being in the same set.
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Dsell

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 12:52:00 am »
0

If a quarter of any expansion was cursers, I probably wouldn't buy that set. I mean, I'm sure DXV could find some way to balance the set but I just don't see games heavy on that set being terribly exciting.

Edit: I think Dark Ages will be fine on that front because 1) there are no cursers, 2) ruins are not as bad for your deck as curses, and 3) one of the looters is a self-attack to compensate for how strong the card is.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 12:53:48 am by Dsell »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 01:01:05 am »
+5

Cursing is a core concept of Dominion. That is why it is in Base. Ruins are like a new take on that core concept.
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ftl

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 01:04:13 am »
+1

We saw from Dark Ages a new type of "curse" entirely contained within that set. Why wasn't this done with the original "Curse" (rearranging the expansions so that "Curse" comes in a single expansion)? You could have saved room in the Base Set and Intrigue for more kingdom cards, and had a completely game changing expansion come out the other end.

The only thing I can think of is awkwardness with Familiar (but that could be fixed by making it a promo card) and a bit of redundancy like Witch and Young Witch being in the same set.

Each expansion is designed to be standalone playable with the base set or intrigue.

An expansion filled with nothing but cursers would be sort of boring to play, a lot of games would be pretty much the same. 
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ftl

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 01:05:46 am »
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Just like every expansion has trashing; trashing didn't all go to one "trashing-themed" expansion. Every expansion has villages. Every expansion has terminal draw.

They all do their own unique twist on it, of course. But just like that, every expansion has cursing - except Dark Ages, which twists it far enough that it's different, it has Ruins as its version of curses.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 01:10:57 am »
0

Witch
Torturer
Embargo
Sea Hag
Familiar
Mountebank
Young Witch
Jester
Followers* (So include tournament)
Ill Gotten Gains

I'd also add swindler (even though it isn't strictly a curser)

That'd be a more than half of a big box expansion, but it probably isn't that bad. If familiar was made a promo card, it would have (300-(110 cards+50 curses+5 tournament prizes))=155 other cards, so 14 other kingdom cards. If you replaced the curses and blanks in the base set with 3 more kingdom cards (none of which are cursers), the probability of getting more than one curser would be somewhere between 3% and 4%, and this probably wouldn't be the first expansion.

Edit: 20% of games of "Base"+this set would have at least one curser, so there's the unique flavour, but it isn't dominant.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 01:12:58 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 01:17:21 am »
0

It just always seemed like a waste to me to have an entire pile of cards dedicated to just Witch/Torturer (and swindler).

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 01:19:02 am by NoMoreFun »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 01:24:48 am »
0

It just always seemed like a waste to me to have an entire pile of cards dedicated to just Witch/Torturer (and swindler).

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".

Hmm...

Well, Tournament eats up 5 extra slots with the prizes

We now have 50 Ruins eating up card slots
Rats eat up 10 extra slots
Then, we have Madman and Mercenary--both of which have only one card devoted to them.
And, Spoils only have three cards devoted them

The only cards that seem to really waste slots are Madman and Mercenary, but the concept is cool. We have a lot of curse givers now, so having those slots taken up in Base and Intrigue isn't a big deal, and besides Dominion wouldn't be Dominion if each expansion didn't have some variant Curse-giver.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 01:36:51 am »
0

It just always seemed like a waste to me to have an entire pile of cards dedicated to just Witch/Torturer (and swindler).

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".

Hmm...

Well, Tournament eats up 5 extra slots with the prizes

We now have 50 Ruins eating up card slots
Rats eat up 10 extra slots
Then, we have Madman and Mercenary--both of which have only one card devoted to them.
And, Spoils only have three cards devoted them

The only cards that seem to really waste slots are Madman and Mercenary, but the concept is cool. We have a lot of curse givers now, so having those slots taken up in Base and Intrigue isn't a big deal, and besides Dominion wouldn't be Dominion if each expansion didn't have some variant Curse-giver.

Tournament actually perfectly fills up the spare room in Cornucopia, but I see your point. Maybe if Embargo was in Intrigue or Ambassador was in the base set (to imply that the curses are there all the time for a reason) I'd be less annoyed.

In fact I wouldn't be annoyed at all if it wasn't for the fact that Guilds is going to be the last expansion and some ideas like Durations and VP gainers have been confirmed as never appearing again, yet there's so, so many ideas out there for cards. In the same vein it's annoying to read that some cards were included for the sole purpose of looking strong but turning out to be weak (Thief) or that are mainly designed to combo with very certain cards (Scout, Ironworks to a lesser extent), or seeing some cards be severely outclassed as the expansions go on (Chancellor, Spy, Thief again)
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blueblimp

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 01:38:29 am »
0

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".
Now that Goko exists, I wonder if we might see such cards in a computer-only realization.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 01:44:06 am »
+2

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".
Now that Goko exists, I wonder if we might see such cards in a computer-only realization.

There's also more promo cards, and maybe Dominion might continue beyond the original intentions of the creator (which I'd be very wary of considering how badly similar games have sunk into power creep).

I'd be so happy if there was an "Odds and Ends" expansion that you were only meant to buy if you had all the other expansions (Similar to Arkham Horror's Miskatonic Horror), or an expansion that was Donald X's favourite fan cards or something.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 02:59:47 am »
0

It just always seemed like a waste to me to have an entire pile of cards dedicated to just Witch/Torturer (and swindler).

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".

Hmm...

Well, Tournament eats up 5 extra slots with the prizes

We now have 50 Ruins eating up card slots
Rats eat up 10 extra slots
Then, we have Madman and Mercenary--both of which have only one card devoted to them.
And, Spoils only have three cards devoted them

The only cards that seem to really waste slots are Madman and Mercenary, but the concept is cool. We have a lot of curse givers now, so having those slots taken up in Base and Intrigue isn't a big deal, and besides Dominion wouldn't be Dominion if each expansion didn't have some variant Curse-giver.

Tournament actually perfectly fills up the spare room in Cornucopia, but I see your point. Maybe if Embargo was in Intrigue or Ambassador was in the base set (to imply that the curses are there all the time for a reason) I'd be less annoyed.

In fact I wouldn't be annoyed at all if it wasn't for the fact that Guilds is going to be the last expansion and some ideas like Durations and VP gainers have been confirmed as never appearing again, yet there's so, so many ideas out there for cards. In the same vein it's annoying to read that some cards were included for the sole purpose of looking strong but turning out to be weak (Thief) or that are mainly designed to combo with very certain cards (Scout, Ironworks to a lesser extent), or seeing some cards be severely outclassed as the expansions go on (Chancellor, Spy, Thief again)

I think having cards that appear strong but turn out weak is a good thing. Some players never learn. It tests the skill of the player and offers them an opportunity to learn. That is actually a sign of a very good game. Regarding Spy and Chancellor--well, not every card can be perfect. Base was also the first set to be released, so I'm sure it didn't get the same level of play testing as other expansions. You learn as you go.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 03:11:05 am »
0

It just always seemed like a waste to me to have an entire pile of cards dedicated to just Witch/Torturer (and swindler).

Edit: Especially when you read the Secret Histories and some good card ideas are not included and never will be included because there's "not enough room".

Hmm...

Well, Tournament eats up 5 extra slots with the prizes

We now have 50 Ruins eating up card slots
Rats eat up 10 extra slots
Then, we have Madman and Mercenary--both of which have only one card devoted to them.
And, Spoils only have three cards devoted them

The only cards that seem to really waste slots are Madman and Mercenary, but the concept is cool. We have a lot of curse givers now, so having those slots taken up in Base and Intrigue isn't a big deal, and besides Dominion wouldn't be Dominion if each expansion didn't have some variant Curse-giver.

Tournament actually perfectly fills up the spare room in Cornucopia, but I see your point. Maybe if Embargo was in Intrigue or Ambassador was in the base set (to imply that the curses are there all the time for a reason) I'd be less annoyed.

In fact I wouldn't be annoyed at all if it wasn't for the fact that Guilds is going to be the last expansion and some ideas like Durations and VP gainers have been confirmed as never appearing again, yet there's so, so many ideas out there for cards. In the same vein it's annoying to read that some cards were included for the sole purpose of looking strong but turning out to be weak (Thief) or that are mainly designed to combo with very certain cards (Scout, Ironworks to a lesser extent), or seeing some cards be severely outclassed as the expansions go on (Chancellor, Spy, Thief again)

I think having cards that appear strong but turn out weak is a good thing. Some players never learn. It tests the skill of the player and offers them an opportunity to learn. That is actually a sign of a very good game. Regarding Spy and Chancellor--well, not every card can be perfect. Base was also the first set to be released, so I'm sure it didn't get the same level of play testing as other expansions. You learn as you go.

It just sticks out like a sore thumb when the majority of cards appear to be overpowered and then underpowered (or vice versa), but eventually reveal themselves to be balanced.

Maybe that's how things will go for Thief and Scout (although the latter I doubt because it was specifically designed to work with other intrigue cards)

I actually like Chancellor quite a lot but I don't think its effect is simple or useful enough to justify a "Vanilla" version when stronger versions are planned (unlike say, Village or Smithy)

At any rate, I just want there to be as many heavily playtested, well conceived, balanced but unique cards as possible.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 05:34:04 am »
+19

In the same vein it's annoying to read that some cards were included for the sole purpose of looking strong but turning out to be weak (Thief)
I have never made a card for the sole purpose of looking strong but turning out to be weak. The cards are all there to provide gameplay; to be cards people enjoy playing with, that change the game in whatever ways they do. Thief does look strong but turn out to be weak; but wasn't the point of Thief. Weak cards get played less often; strong cards cause other cards to get played less often. The game is at its best with balanced cards. Whether or not they look strong or weak at first glance, that's not as important, although certainly they don't want to all look awful.

There are four kinds of attacks in Dominion, four kinds that matter anyway. There is an essay about this elsewhere on this site but I will list them for you: give other players junk (Witches); trash other players' good cards (I think of these as Knights); make other players discard (Militias); and muck with deck orders (Spies).

With only four kinds of attacks, I want to be able to do each kind in each expansion, to maximize the variety of attacks. Therefore I want to be able to do Witches in each expansion.

You can hand out stuff besides Curses. Estates are pretty bad. Copper isn't so hot. But handing out that kind of thing has issues. The Copper pile doesn't have a definite size, and varies with the number of players in a poor way. There are not very many Estates. You can do a few Witches that use cards like this, but most Witches cannot.

You can add new cards to hand out, like Ruins. The problem here is that that is a giant pile of cards to stick in an expansion. You would have to be making some kind of insane 500-card expansion in order to have space for those.

But by putting Curses in the main set, every expansion can have a Witch while devoting zero space to Curses.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 12:51:35 pm »
+1

Thanks for the reply, but it's obvious to everyone that's played more than a couple of games of dominion that Thief was never intended to be anything more than a trick. You admitted in your post that "copper isn't too hot", so why would a card with the primary function of trashing your opponents copper (and allowing you to gain it) ever have any chance of being a good card? Is this what you wanted to design? A card for experienced players to secretly laugh at new players who'd dare think it was a powerful card? It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Thief, despite being weak, is a trashing attack, which is the most hateful kind of play, and I can't imagine people getting any delight out of it being played other than the aforementioned in joke that comes with understanding how the game works.

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.
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theory

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 12:53:39 pm »
+5

Not all cards are useful all the time.  Thief happens to be a card that seems strong all-around at first, but actually only excels in particular circumstances, like Coppersmith and Counting House.  That's good for the game and part of good game design.
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polonkus

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 12:54:09 pm »
+2

Thanks for the reply, but it's obvious to everyone that's played more than a couple of games of dominion that Thief was never intended to be anything more than a trick. You admitted in your post that "copper isn't too hot", so why would a card with the primary function of trashing your opponents copper (and allowing you to gain it) ever have any chance of being a good card? Is this what you wanted to design? A card for experienced players to secretly laugh at new players who'd dare think it was a powerful card? It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Thief, despite being weak, is a trashing attack, which is the most hateful kind of play, and I can't imagine people getting any delight out of it being played other than the aforementioned in joke that comes with understanding how the game works.

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.

I dunno, I get a fair amount of enjoyment out of going Thief on boards where TR/KC are out.
Sure it doesn't work out most of the time, but against an unwary or unlucky opponent it can be hilarious.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 12:57:25 pm »
+3

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.

Dominion doesn't feel that limited to me...
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 02:13:32 pm »
+1

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.

Dominion doesn't feel that limited to me...

Haters gonna hate.

With that said, Dominion is awesome, and I have nothing against cards like Thief existing. Chancellor and Scout kind of suck, but they can't all be winners.
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PenPen

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 02:43:47 pm »
0

Cards like Thief scale differently though. In a 2 player game, it is kind of meh, but if you're playing in 3-4 players (or heaven forbid, you get 5+ players), Thief performs much better.
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Donald X.

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 04:03:28 pm »
+5

Thanks for the reply, but it's obvious to everyone that's played more than a couple of games of dominion that Thief was never intended to be anything more than a trick.
Sometimes obvious things are also crazy wrong! This one for example. I mean, go ahead and believe I'm lying to you. Oh well.

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.
There is a thread in the forum of all me talking that explains why there are only so many expansions.
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engineer

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 04:17:19 pm »
0

There is a thread in the forum of all me talking that explains why there are only so many expansions.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=73.0
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rinkworks

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 04:27:13 pm »
+1

I'm not sure I understand the logic here anyway.  If removing Curses from Base gave room for three more kingdom cards, fine, but then putting Curses in a future expansion would suck away spots for three kingdom cards there, so it's not like the total number of kingdom cards across all sets would have been larger.

Furthermore, putting all the Cursers into one box means (1) less variety of gameplay in all the other sets that don't have Cursers now, and (2) that one expansion is miserable and contains virtually no variety at all, since basically every single game is a Cursing game or, alternately, the same set of non-Cursers that fit into the expansion that you deliberately exclude because you're sick of heavy Cursing games.
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Archetype

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 04:32:32 pm »
0

(2) that one expansion is miserable and contains virtually no variety at all, since basically every single game is a Cursing game

I don't know. I thought this set looked pretty fun: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1011.0
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Why is Curse a base card?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 04:56:40 pm »
0

Thanks for the reply, but it's obvious to everyone that's played more than a couple of games of dominion that Thief was never intended to be anything more than a trick. You admitted in your post that "copper isn't too hot", so why would a card with the primary function of trashing your opponents copper (and allowing you to gain it) ever have any chance of being a good card? Is this what you wanted to design? A card for experienced players to secretly laugh at new players who'd dare think it was a powerful card? It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that Thief, despite being weak, is a trashing attack, which is the most hateful kind of play, and I can't imagine people getting any delight out of it being played other than the aforementioned in joke that comes with understanding how the game works.

You've created a wonderful game here, and one with potential far beyond what any single person could imagine. The fact that it's been limited to a small number of mostly arbitrarily themed expansions is inevitably going to be frustrating because of this, and cards like Thief just make it worse.

It's pretty bad in two player, but not totally terrible:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2862.0

And it can actually be pretty good in multiplayer, a la this game from the qualifiers to the US Championships, where I basically win because I thief:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120626-183047-a6084288.html
Look, it ain't a good card, but it's not like joke bad.
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