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Author Topic: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?  (Read 9280 times)

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Loschmidt

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Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« on: August 16, 2012, 11:39:46 pm »
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Back in the day, when we didn't even have expansions, all the Johnnies out there took on Chancellor as a personal challenge. In fact this article is Drew Hardin trying really hard to justify Chancellor:

http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/01/28/guest-article-chancellor/

We were determined to use it to make deck variance work to our advantage. And sometimes it did. I mean, when your Chancellor/Silver collide on turn 3 to allow for a turn 4 Witch play, BAM! Thats why you're a Johnny.

Anyway, Scavenger gives Chancellor a top-decking buff. Yeehaa! Now I want to use Scavenger to see if I can keep my deck quality consistenly better than my discard, in the way we always wanted Chancellor to let us. If your deck it worse than your discard, reshuffle that baby. If not top deck something nice and keep going. Use sifters to assist.

Now I know that i can pull this off easily enough, but I wonder. Will it make a difference?
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Scissors61

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 11:50:05 pm »
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I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.
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jonts26

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 11:55:23 pm »
+2

I think the topdecking ability will be very nice in certain decks. Heck, golem/counting house/scavenger might be better than bad! Also stash/scavenger should be even more powerful than chancellor. All you need is 3 stashes and 2 scavengers to guarantee a province per turn. Well you could draw both scavengers. A third scavenger or 4th stash would solve that.
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gman314

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 11:58:09 pm »
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I think Counterfeit would actually be quite awful in a BM deck. In a BM deck, you want to keep you treasures. Especially those which are worth playing twice. I think that counterfeit would be better in a deck with a few key treasures being used to get to engine stage. Then, you get rid of your key treasures with a bang! (Even more off-topic; what if you counterfeit a Spoils?) And in that case, Scavengering a counterfeit would risk not getting the key engine cards.

But back on topic, I think that Scavenger will make a difference. Not a big one, but a difference none-the-less.
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dondon151

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 12:08:15 am »
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When it comes to getting your turn 3 Witch played on turn 4, though, Scavenger is no better than Chancellor at doing that (actually, it's very slightly worse). But definitely better in all other circumstances.
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werothegreat

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 12:08:48 am »
+1

I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony
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gman314

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 12:10:01 am »
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I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony

But only at the end when you don't need that Platinum anymore. BM wants to keep its power treasures.
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jonts26

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 12:13:45 am »
+2

Another thing I didn't see mentioned was the interaction with multiple scavengers. The discard is optional, but the top-decking is not. So with the right deck, you can play several of these per turn to set up your next turn.
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samath

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 12:14:15 am »
+5

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony
For that matter, Remodel + Platinum = Colony.
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ftl

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 12:14:48 am »
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Another thing I didn't see mentioned was the interaction with multiple scavengers. The discard is optional, but the top-decking is not. So with the right deck, you can play several of these per turn to set up your next turn.
No, you can't. Because if you top-deck something with one Scavenger, the next Scavenger will put that something right back in the discard before choosing a new card to put on top.
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jonts26

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 12:18:11 am »
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No, the put the deck into the discard is optional. You don't have to do that part. The top-decking is not contingent on doing that either. So the first scavenger puts the deck in the discard and then that and each subsequent one can put a card on top of the deck.
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ftl

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 12:18:56 am »
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Ohhh, right. Sorry.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 12:41:33 am »
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I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony

No. Counterfit + Platinum = Colony + Province

Could make a difference if it is the Penultimate Colony.
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ftl

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 01:02:54 am »
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Wait, how is it Colony+Province?

Counterfeit gives 1. It plays the Platinum twice, giving 5 each time, for a total of 11. That's enough for a colony but nothing else.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 01:19:37 am »
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Wait, how is it Colony+Province?

Counterfeit gives 1. It plays the Platinum twice, giving 5 each time, for a total of 11. That's enough for a colony but nothing else.

Duh! I have no idea what I was thinking!
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Loschmidt

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 01:27:03 am »
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When it comes to getting your turn 3 Witch played on turn 4, though, Scavenger is no better than Chancellor at doing that (actually, it's very slightly worse). But definitely better in all other circumstances.

Wait, how is it worse?....Oh, i see you have to top deck before you can buy. It is a lot better in the case of turn 3 Witch, turn 4 Scavenger guaranteeing turn 5 Witch.

But back on topic, I think that Scavenger will make a difference. Not a big one, but a difference none-the-less.

Me too :)
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Young Nick

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 01:33:35 am »
+3

"Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?"

No. Chancellor is the Chancellor I have always loved. I never wanted anyone else. Haters gonna hate, but he's fo' real.

(He's my 13th under win rate given availability. I gain him in ~20% of games compared to the community's ~12%.)
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Young Nick

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 01:36:09 am »
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When it comes to getting your turn 3 Witch played on turn 4, though, Scavenger is no better than Chancellor at doing that (actually, it's very slightly worse). But definitely better in all other circumstances.

Wait, how is it worse?....Oh, i see you have to top deck before you can buy. It is a lot better in the case of turn 3 Witch, turn 4 Scavenger guaranteeing turn 5 Witch.

Maybe because you can't open with another $4 that is good at getting you to $5? Though it would either have to not be an action (and Talisman seems irrelevant) or you would need a way to play both in the same turn (either the $4 is non-terminal or you are starting with Shelters).
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Scissors61

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 03:07:24 am »
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"Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?"

No. Chancellor is the Chancellor I have always loved. I never wanted anyone else. Haters gonna hate, but he's fo' real.

(He's my 13th under win rate given availability. I gain him in ~20% of games compared to the community's ~12%.)
Tell me your secret, man!
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Davio

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 03:22:31 am »
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"Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?"

No. Chancellor is the Chancellor I have always loved. I never wanted anyone else. Haters gonna hate, but he's fo' real.

(He's my 13th under win rate given availability. I gain him in ~20% of games compared to the community's ~12%.)
Those stats don't mean anything.

Your WRGA is 1.31 +- 0.14 and mine is 1.35 +- 0.12 even though I only gain it 13% of the time.
Looking at your own WRGA doesn't say much, you need to compare it.
I wonder what the gain % is of the person with the highest WRGA for Chancellor, because that would say something.
Maybe your WRGA would go up if you gained it less.

Heck, my WRGA with Horn of Plenty is 1.42 even though I gain it less than 10% of the time.
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DrFlux

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 10:31:32 am »
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I think counterfeit is better in engines, but still good in BM. Using it to trash copper is still an improvement in average value, and gets you a silver in value immediately. Late game multiple counterfeits could lead to some awesome game ending turns.

I would think so. In a BM deck, top decking Counterfeit would be pretty nice.

Counterfeit + Platinum = Colony

But only at the end when you don't need that Platinum anymore. BM wants to keep its power treasures.
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Davio

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 10:39:52 am »
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Maybe Rebuild is the faux Chancellor we always wanted. :)
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Young Nick

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 04:44:17 pm »
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"Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?"

No. Chancellor is the Chancellor I have always loved. I never wanted anyone else. Haters gonna hate, but he's fo' real.

(He's my 13th under win rate given availability. I gain him in ~20% of games compared to the community's ~12%.)
Those stats don't mean anything.

Your WRGA is 1.31 +- 0.14 and mine is 1.35 +- 0.12 even though I only gain it 13% of the time.
Looking at your own WRGA doesn't say much, you need to compare it.
I wonder what the gain % is of the person with the highest WRGA for Chancellor, because that would say something.
Maybe your WRGA would go up if you gained it less.

Heck, my WRGA with Horn of Plenty is 1.42 even though I gain it less than 10% of the time.

I'm no whiz with the councilroom numbers and I'll be the first to admit that. Having said that, you can get an indication of whether or not you are gaining it too often via "Effect With" and "Effect Without." And my "Effect With" is significantly higher than my "Effect Without" which would seem to imply I am skipping it more than I should. And it makes sense that your WRGA is higher than mine because your WR is higher than mine in general (:(). It's just that my WR is boosted more than yours by the Chancellor's presence.

Again, I am quite aware that any single person's numbers are not all that relevant to the community on the whole. I knew that I was opening a can of worms when I referenced my councilroom stats. But, regardless of numbers, the main point still stands:

Chancellor is the Chancellor I've always wanted.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 08:02:53 pm »
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Chancellor is the Chancellor I've always wanted.

Well said :D

I'm not hating on my old friend Chancellor, I'm just excited to try Scavenger.

Hmmm, if Chancellor, Scavenger and Stash are all on the board... Is the best opening Chancellor/Scavenger? Or does that limit your chances at $5 too much.
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Varsinor

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Re: Is Scavenger the Chancellor we've always wanted?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 09:09:52 pm »
+1

Hmmm, if Chancellor, Scavenger and Stash are all on the board... Is the best opening Chancellor/Scavenger? Or does that limit your chances at $5 too much.

I'd definitely prefer opening Scavenger / Silver over Scavenger / Chancellor. The Chancellor doesn't do you much good to set up your 3 Stashes plus 2 Scavengers and the risk to have colliding terminals is much too high given the low expected benefit.
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