Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Dark Ages initial report  (Read 11785 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 283
  • Respect: +487
    • View Profile
Dark Ages initial report
« on: August 16, 2012, 08:26:19 pm »
+11

Edit: I have now played with all cards at least once; more details below.

I'm here at GenCon, and my friend & roommate bought Dark Ages, and we've been playing 2p.

1. Dark Ages is awesome.
2. Wandering Minstrel is an awesome card. I predict that it will be the most popular $4 village. It cycles your deck, and if you're playing a deck that has villages, you want those Actions! WM + anything that has draw will help you get to your good actions, especially terminals, fast.
3. Catacombs is a great card. It's like Navigator that does everything you want.
4. Squire is a power $2, even if you can't turn it into an attack by trashing. +$1 and gain a Silver is strong.
5. In a 2p game, I played a Feodum deck with great success: the support was Armory, Squire, and Rebuild.
6. Altar is not necessarily a power card, but it is fairly priced.
7. Necropolis in your deck does not wildly change the how-many-terminals-can-I-have calculus. I think I benefited once in three games. I benefited from the Overgrown Estate's TfB and Hovel's self-trash in every game.
8. After playing several games with Pillage and Bandit Camp, I am still having a lot of trouble evaluating them and Spoils.

I am going off to play some more games now. Wish me luck!

P.S. Rene Deathcart
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:01:05 am by sitnaltax »
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3652
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 08:40:10 pm »
+15

P.S. Rene Deathcart

I trash, therefore I am.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 09:34:39 pm »
0

I only managed to get in 1 game of Dark Ages in the RGG exhibition room before getting kicked off a table by a group of 4 people. It's hard getting in games when you're here by yourself...

The game that I played didn't have any attacks or looters or any fancy stuff; I just remembered building an engine that used Market Square (?) to gain Golds and Counterfeit to double-play those Golds. Counterfeit is a pretty good card.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2453
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 09:36:23 pm »
0

I'm here at GenCon, and my friend & roommate bought Dark Ages, and we've been playing 2p.

1. Dark Ages is awesome.
2. Wandering Minstrel is an awesome card. I predict that it will be the most popular $4 village. It cycles your deck, and if you're playing a deck that has villages, you want those Actions! WM + anything that has draw will help you get to your good actions, especially terminals, fast.
3. Catacombs is a great card. It's like Navigator that does everything you want.
4. Squire is a power $2, even if you can't turn it into an attack by trashing. +$1 and gain a Silver is strong.
5. In a 2p game, I played a Feodum deck with great success: the support was Armory, Squire, and Rebuild.
6. Altar is not necessarily a power card, but it is fairly priced.
7. Necropolis in your deck does not wildly change the how-many-terminals-can-I-have calculus. I think I benefited once in three games. I benefited from the Overgrown Estate's TfB and Hovel's self-trash in every game.
8. After playing several games with Pillage and Bandit Camp, I am still having a lot of trouble evaluating them and Spoils.

I am going off to play some more games now. Wish me luck!

P.S. Rene Deathcart

Great report. Hope to hear more soon.
Logged

Diving Pikachu

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 70
  • ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 12:17:37 am »
0

I have friends at GenCon, and I forgot to give them to cash to pick up Dark Ages. Did you see if they had a method for taking cards? And would just looking up "Rio Grande Games" be able to direct someone to the right place?

Also, how much did you get it for? On Amazon there's a bit of a difference between list price and what they were selling it for. If it's list price then I might as well wait.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 12:25:40 am by Diving Pikachu »
Logged

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 283
  • Respect: +487
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 01:58:41 am »
+3

I have now played with each of these at least once in an all-Dark-Ages 2p Kingdom.

I have seen both BM and engine strategies work. I have also seen a different kind of strategy where you buy too many terminals, because some will get trashed possibly for benefit, or they have a dual purpose that can give Actions if needed(Band of Misfits, Squire). I'm not sure whether this will be a long-term popular strategy but it has won games.

Altar: I still feel this is fair but not dynamite. If I get $5 and you get $6 we'll both do OK.

Armory: Puzzle writers will love this most of all. Having one is great because you can pick up what you need. Got two terminals left in your deck? Stick a Village on top. Only card left in your deck is a Village? Put a Smithy on top. Will also work with the usual alt-VP suspects--the topdeck isn't a big deal--and definitely nice with Feodum.

Band of Misfits: Usually playable; sometimes awesome if there are two cheaper cards either of which you might want to play, like a village and a drawer.

Bandit Camp: Like Festival, very strong, even if you don't necessarily use both actions.

Beggar: Never purchased.

Catacombs: Dynamite. Comparable in power to Embassy, I think. Works either with BM or an engine or a deck that's trying to squeeze in too many terminals.

Count: As fascinating as you thought. Not a strong enough trasher to build a deck around, but supports either BM or engine. Will work well in many decks.

Counterfeit: Never bought. Am I missing something? I think this is a weak card.

Cultist: Strong, but not as strong as I had thought; Ruins are much less horrible than Curses.

Death Cart: Pray that you collide it with one of the Ruins or at least Necropolis. Did you know that $5 is a lot of money? It'll buy you a province almost every time. This is a power card.

Feodum: Not a game-changer without support, which is, generally, the support you would expect. Squire worked well. I don't believe trashing Feodums for the silver in the absence of other support is viable.

Forager: Weak and slow unless you need to trash, or if trashing attacks put expensive treasures in the trash.

Fortress: The special ability never came up. Will be funny when say Swindler or a Knight hits it, but will not be considered as good as Mining Village.

Graverobber: Never came up, despite the presence of Knights. I continue to think this is weak and awkwardly costed.

Hermit: This is a powerful card, gaining Silver or copies of itself and trashing junk in a powerful way where it can be in your discard! Also works on Squires, hopefully in your discard as well. The Madman ability is (powerful) icing on the cake; hope you have buys!

Hunting Grounds: $6 for +4 cards is weak. You need to have a plan to trash it, hopefully something like Apprentice, Procession, or Hermit after it's in your discard.

Ironmonger: This is surprisingly good. Hitting a Victory card is especially nice because you get to cycle the card away. Cycling away Copper is good too. You hope to not hit an action usually. You will always confuse this card with Ironworks.

Junk Dealer: Strong and solid; the Dark Ages equivalent of Lab.

Marauder: This is a weird one and I am still having trouble evaluating Spoils. I don't think it's worth it unless the Ruins are going to seriously interfere with the opponent.

Market Square: If you're planning to trash or have your cards trashed, clearly good. Hurts less than Tunnel early if you draw it "dead" without being able to activate it, but I don't think you'll open it except maybe with Hermit.

Mystic: Showed up a lot and never purchased. Maybe I am missing something? I think this will be considered a weak $5 unless you happen to have a card that supports it... like Apothecary or, you know... Scout.

Pillage: The self-trashing is odd. The directed discard will drive engine players NUTS (it takes away the combo piece you need) and isn't so terrible for BM.

Poor House: Never purchased. Will be important in certain engine games but I didn't see any of those.

Procession: Bought, but not to great effect. I think this will be very powerful in a small number of games (upgrade from Caravan to Lab, if it gets you to Goons, GM) but usually a risky buy--you have to collide it with just the right card with the right combination of Actions available.

Rats: Managing the rats with the rest of your deck takes a lot of effort. You'll need a good memory for exactly what you have and where it is, and you need good trashing support. I think most players will be well-served to avoid Rats in most cases, but it'll feel great when you pull it off.

Rebuild: This is a powerful point source. I actually gained Estate with Hermit just so I could leverage it! It'll be especially good in non-Shelter games where the Estates make an attractive target. In most cases you'll name Province or Colony, whatever you don't want to hit.

Rogue: Difficult to suss. Not usually a devastating attack, but the $2 keeps it from having the problems of Graverobber. Works nicely if you are putting cards into the trash yourself--Apprentice's best friend.

Sage: More difficult to wrap my head around than I thought at first; will be difficult to figure out the exact number you should buy. Still a good card and a good early buy.

Scavenger: Yes, this is the card you always wanted Chancellor to be. It's powerful and lets you play your good cards a lot, like a Chancellor-Scheme. Notice that the topdecking doesn't require you to discard your deck.

Squire: +$1, +2A would be an OK village at $2. +$1, gain a silver would be great. Having the option of both, with the buys and the ability to turn it into an attack, is just fantastic. This will certainly be in the top 3 $2 cards, and I think probably above Hamlet.

Storeroom: At first I thought it sucked. Then I thought it was fantastic. Now I'm back to thinking it's a trap and you'll wish you just had Silver.

Urchin: This is obviously a super weak attack, but Mercenary is awesome unless your deck is trimmed. You'll want to combo it with a better attack, not itself, but if you have such an attack and hit $3 or $4 Urchin looks like it can be good.

Vagrant: Not a power $2; in line with Pearl Diver.

Wandering Minstrel: As I said above, this is an awesome Village and in my mind definitely the top $4 except in special circumstances.

Knights: Forget the differences between the Knights. What's going to piss you off during play is when you hit two Coppers and I hit your Duchy. The ability for them to fight and kill each other is cute, but I never saw it happen.

Ruins: These are nowhere near as bad as Curses. Losing the Ruins split isn't awful at all, although to be fair we had good trashing. Not that any of them are worth buying, but: Abandoned Mine is the best. Ruined Library is second--the +Card is likely to draw something dead. Survivors is third; the discard can come in handy. Ruined Market and Ruined Village are the worst, with the slight preference going to the Market.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:07:21 am by sitnaltax »
Logged

sitnaltax

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 283
  • Respect: +487
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 02:00:18 am »
0

I have friends at GenCon, and I forgot to give them to cash to pick up Dark Ages. Did you see if they had a method for taking cards? And would just looking up "Rio Grande Games" be able to direct someone to the right place?

Also, how much did you get it for? On Amazon there's a bit of a difference between list price and what they were selling it for. If it's list price then I might as well wait.

I believe they can take plastic, although I'm not positive. I'm not sure the name of the booth, but it was near the front of the exhibit hall and a little bit of asking around should get you there.

We got it for $45, which I believe is list price.
Logged

Rhombus

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 02:49:09 am »
+1

Some of my thoughts:

Rats - Not intuitive, but there's definitely got to be some crazy strategies here.  On the board, but never purchased.
Knights - Looked neat, but again didn't purchase them - other cards seemed too fast.
Vagrant - Never found a use for this card either - other cards had so much drawing power.
Scavenger - Exactly what it looks like, a decently better Chancellor.  Would be more interesting if it were a cantrip.
Storeroom - Seemed like it would be a decent opener, but now I'm not so sure.
Rebuild - Cannot understand this for the life of me.
Sage - Never found a strong use, perhaps there is one, but in my games the opportunity cost was too high.
Pillage - Powerhouse, especially if comboed with Graverobber/Rogue and a village.  Very surprised.
Poor House - I'm sure this is board dependant.
Procession - With lots of Dark Ages card, Procession ROCKS ... a lot more than you'd expect.  Procession/Fortress/Band of Misfits (now dubbed BOM) was a very strong mid-game combo especially when combined with card draw and buys.
Junk Dealer - the use of this card only becomes apparent after playing a few Dark Ages games.  Slow trashing isn't too dangerous, especially with Overgrown Estate, Hovel, Fortress, etc.
Marauder - Didn't get to use this one, but judging by the effects of other cards, this looks comparable to Sea Hag.
Market Square - interesting card - very good in an engine when you can use it multiple times (by discarding then fully redrawing again) and then use the buy at the end.  Even one reaction use to gain a gold, then using the buy is powerful.  Trashing cards (again, especially Fortress or a Fortress/BOM/Hunting Grounds combo)
Mystic - Didn't understand this until late in the games.  Could be very uesful with Graverobber or Rogue.
Graverobber - Very interesting with Pillage.  Other powerful uses TBD - perhaps combos like Village/Graverobber/Pillage/Village or Mystic, Village/Graverobber/BOM/Village or Mystic/continue combo, etc.
Hunting Grounds - Boy oh boy is +4 cards strong.  Also a very convenient pricepoint to be trashed into via Procession.
Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.
Cultist - pretty awesome if you know when to time the purchases and how many to get, depending on your and your opponent's deck composition.  Much better if you can upgrade these somehow (Upgrade, Procession, maybe even Salvager) - a TFB with the trash benefit is better than it looks.
Forager - Pretty strong in the mid/late game, especially when you need +buys.  Basically an alternate trade route.
Fortress - such a neat village.  The untrashability can make trashing it very desirable (again, procession, etc)
Catacombs - Looks interesting, but there wasn't time to purchase it in the games we played.  Also seems like it would combo well with Procession (with a cost 4 and 6 cost action on the table, like Fortress and Hunting Grounds)
Armory - Probably situational.  Seems decent, especially if you can play it a few times relatively early on decent actions, then upgrade out of it (again, Procession).
Band of Misfits (BOM) - The $5 pricepoint is perfect - you end up upgrading from $4's into BOM's that have the same effect with no penalty (again, Procession), and then perhaps even upgrading to a power 6.  Procession/Fortress/BOM/Hunting Grounds was very strong.
Bandit Camp - Hard to figure out when to buy this.
Feodum - Didn't play with it yet and our games were not silver centric.
Urchin - Didn't play with it yet, but I have a feeling that Mercenary is relatively strong for some reason.
Wandering Minstrel - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.
Squire - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.  Probably very board dependent.
Hermit - Didn't play with it yet, but looks very interesting.  Grabbing a Madman or multiple Madmans/Madmen? could probably lead up to a nice mega-turn if done correctly.
Death Card - Didn't play with it yet, probably very strong with a drawing engine (you can trash the Ruins you gain with it).
Beggar - Didn't play with it yet, but doesn't look particularly strong.  Maybe good defense in alt-VP games with attacks.
Count - Didn't play with it yet, but looks pretty good if there's +actions on the board.
Counterfeit - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.
Altar - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.

Necropolis - Does help engine play, a nice addition to your starting deck.
Overgrown Estate - a small bonus for a card that's likely to be trashed anyway.
Hovel - situational.  Unsure yet how Great Hall, Tunnel, etc will affect this.

Takeaways:
- Shelters are probably more fun to play with except when you get different splits on a YW/Tunnel game.
- Combos are very prevalent (and very, very fun).
- Keeping track of actions, coins, etc is very, very difficult and may require pen & paper for those without excellent memories.
- Procession in conjunction with other Dark Ages cards may just have the highest combo potential.  Perhaps I didn't play enough games.
- BOM, Pillage, Necropolis, Procession, Junk Dealer, Graverobber, and Fortress seem better than expected.
- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

All in all, this set is full of excitement, combos, and great new cards.  I eagerly await the Dark Ages cards to be added to the Dominion Shuffle android app.

Edit: and for some reason, the box image seems slightly off-center to the left.  Anyone else notice that?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:50:45 am by Rhombus »
Logged

rspeer

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • Respect: +876
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 03:24:01 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.
Logged

Rhombus

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 03:32:28 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.

Interesting, that's a bit surprising.  I'm curious, any idea why?
Logged

Grujah

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2237
  • Respect: +1172
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 04:35:24 am »
0

Thanks. Knew altar ain't gonna be a big deal, its just an Expand. :P
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1052
  • Respect: +854
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 04:55:34 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.
Sage was very simple to implement so I did the same experiment. The play rules for Jack are slightly better in my sim than in Dominiate and doubleJack has exactly the same overall win rate as Jack/Sage (the $4/$3 opening favors Sage by 1-2% and $5/$2 favors doubleJack by 4-5%)
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8171
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9586
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 09:17:24 am »
+3

I love how there are two Dark Ages cards (Hermit and Scavenger) that are very similar to some Base cards (Workshop and Chancellor) that most people dislike, but the same qualities that they are disliked for are the ones the Dark Ages cards seem to be liked for.

Workshop - Gain something worth up to $4 "Omg, ew, how many $4 cards do you need?  $5s are SO much better."

Hermit - Gain something worth up to $3 "OMG YOU CAN GET SILVERS."

Well... you could use the Workshop to get Silvers, too...  I do like the discard-trash thing on Hermit, but seeing so many people squee about its crappy Workshop deal is weird.

Chancellor - You may put your deck in your discard "Omg, ew, that's stupid and I'd never buy that."

Scavenger - You may put your deck in your discard "OMG THAT'S SO POWERFUL."

Granted, Scavenger lets you top-deck, and I like that, but still.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1853
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 10:57:22 am »
+2

Counterfeit: Never bought. Am I missing something? I think this is a weak card.

It's a fantastic engine accelerator - at minimum, +$2 on a nonterminal trasher that gives +buy; it also combos well with Treasure gainers. Can it double-play Spoils? That would be a rather strong synergy as well.
Logged

mnavratil

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
  • Respect: +83
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 11:02:35 am »
+4

I love how there are two Dark Ages cards (Hermit and Scavenger) that are very similar to some Base cards (Workshop and Chancellor) that most people dislike, but the same qualities that they are disliked for are the ones the Dark Ages cards seem to be liked for.

Workshop - Gain something worth up to $4 "Omg, ew, how many $4 cards do you need?  $5s are SO much better."

Hermit - Gain something worth up to $3 "OMG YOU CAN GET SILVERS."

Well... you could use the Workshop to get Silvers, too...  I do like the discard-trash thing on Hermit, but seeing so many people squee about its crappy Workshop deal is weird.

Chancellor - You may put your deck in your discard "Omg, ew, that's stupid and I'd never buy that."

Scavenger - You may put your deck in your discard "OMG THAT'S SO POWERFUL."

Granted, Scavenger lets you top-deck, and I like that, but still.

Hermit is not OMG You can gain silvers. It's OMG it can trash AND gain silvers; which is much more like JoaT than workshop.
Logged

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 01:50:10 pm »
0

Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.

I think you are totally off with that assessment.
The first thing I thought when I read Ironmonger was that it is really strong for a $4 card!
I think it should be a hot contender for a new top 10 of $4 cards. It should usually be considerably better than Caravan. But it is just as easily spammable, so its presence should often be reason enough to make an early Ironworks, Armory or Workshop worthwhile (it almost always is if there is some $4 card you want after the Ironmongers run out).

Ironmonger is usually either a Village or a Laboratory or a Peddler and *additionally* has Jack's filter effect (which is certainly non-neglibile, it can be quite useful). There is another bonus in the fact that it is action cards which give +actions. If there is an action card on your deck, there should be an above-average probability that you can make use of the +action - you might well have another card to draw the action on top and Ironmonger gave you the action to play it as well.
All this is really decent for a $4 card!
Having several dual-type cards (Nobles, Harem, Great Hall, Island and Dame Josephine) in your deck even makes Ironmonger considerably better, while several Curses in it make it weaker. Playing with Shelters makes it a little weaker due to the one Hovel in the deck (which is so far the only card except Curse which is neither Action nor Treasure nor Victory), but as that is only one card, it obviously shouldn't be too important for the strength of Ironmonger.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 01:53:21 pm by Varsinor »
Logged

Rhombus

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 02:01:57 pm »
0

Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.

I think you are totally off with that assessment.
The first thing I thought when I read Ironmonger was that it is really strong for a $4 card!
I think it should be a hot contender for a new top 10 of $4 cards. It should usually be considerably better than Caravan. But it is just as easily spammable, so its presence should often be reason enough to make an early Ironworks, Armory or Workshop worthwhile (it almost always is if there is some $4 card you want after the Ironmongers run out).

Ironmonger is usually either a Village or a Laboratory or a Peddler and *additionally* has Jack's filter effect (which is certainly non-neglibile, it can be quite useful). There is another bonus in the fact that it is action cards which give +actions. If there is an action card on your deck, there should be an above-average probability that you can make use of the +action - you might well have another card to draw the action on top and Ironmonger gave you the action to play it as well.
All this is really decent for a $4 card!
Having several dual-type cards (Nobles, Harem, Great Hall, Island and Dame Josephine) in your deck even makes Ironmonger considerably better, while several Curses in it make it weaker. Playing with Shelters makes it a little weaker due to the one Hovel in the deck (which is so far the only card except Curse which is neither Action nor Treasure nor Victory), but as that is only one card, it obviously shouldn't be too important for the strength of Ironmonger.

I guess I wonder how much that filter ability is worth (Spy is the 5th worst $4).  A vanilla village is only worth $3, Lab $5, Peddler ~$4, and on top of all that, it's unreliable and in that way also reminds me of Tribute, but with your own deck (and less potential benefit).  Undoubtedly, dual-type cards start to make this much stronger.  Also in comparison to jack, once you filter, you don't get to pick up that card (without another combo piece).
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4371
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 02:07:38 pm »
+2

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Rhombus

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 02:20:04 pm »
0

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Those arguments make sense to me.  Do you think it'll work well in many different deck types or only specific ones?

If you think Peddler is a strong 4, what are your thoughts on Junk Dealer?
Logged

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 02:48:49 pm »
0

it's unreliable and in that way also reminds me of Tribute,

I think the biggest drawback of Tribute's unreliability is that you don't know in advance if you can safely play it if you have other actions (but no village) in your hand. And if you hit Victory cards with Tribute, you may draw new actions dead. Maybe you'll still be able to play other actions afterwards, maybe not.
If Tribute had an innate +action, it would be much stronger!

You don't have that drawback with Ironmonger, it is a guaranteed cantrip. Therefore, it's unreliability should be much less of an issue.

but with your own deck

The fact that it is with your own deck should be a non-neglibible advantage of Ironmonger over Tribute for the following reasons:
1. For the majority of the game, faster deck cycling helps you to get to your new and strong cards faster. (The number of turns in which you are greening is usually much smaller than the number of turns in which you are improving your deck.) Therefore, you'd rather not help to cycle your opponent's deck by two cards every time you play Tribute.
2. You are not dependent on the decisions of your opponent, but can try to optimize your deck composition for the needs of your Ironmongers. (This is particularly but not only important when there are dual-type cards which your opponent may actively hold off on buying once he sees or anticipates you buying Tributes.)

(and less potential benefit).

Sure, you can't hit two dual-type cards, just one. But you have much less potential suckyness as well: When you hit a Curse or a Hovel with an Ironmonger, you mostly had the effect of a Laboratory! Why is that? You had the cantrip effect of +1 action, +1 card and got to filter a useless card away - which in most cases is just as good as having drawn it in your hand (except if you could have trashed it there or reshuffled during your turn).
If you hit two Curses / Hovels with a Tribute, you wasted an action *and* a card slot for absolutely nothing.
Logged

Jorbles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1466
  • Respect: +522
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 02:49:49 pm »
0

Has anyone played a game with both a Curser and a Ruiner? How bad are they?
Logged

Insomniac

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 785
  • Respect: +392
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 02:55:22 pm »
0

Has anyone played a game with both a Curser and a Ruiner? How bad are they?

The initial report says Cultist isn't as good. My suspicion is we haven't found the ideal way to play them yet. For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)
Logged
"It is one of [Insomniacs] badges of pride that he will bus anyone, at any time, and he has done it over and over on day 1. I am completely serious, it is like the biggest part of his meta." - Dsell

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 02:55:31 pm »
0

while several Curses in it make it weaker.

Actually, when I wrote my posting above, I realized that this statement wasn't even necessarily true. Sure, when you hit a Curse you get no direct bonus, but when you hit a Curse is just when the filtering effect shines. So even Curses probably don't make Ironmongers that much weaker.
Logged

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 02:58:47 pm »
0

For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.
Logged

Rhombus

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
  • Respect: +16
    • View Profile
Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 03:16:16 pm »
0

For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.

Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.1 seconds with 22 queries.