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sitnaltax

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Dark Ages initial report
« on: August 16, 2012, 08:26:19 pm »
+11

Edit: I have now played with all cards at least once; more details below.

I'm here at GenCon, and my friend & roommate bought Dark Ages, and we've been playing 2p.

1. Dark Ages is awesome.
2. Wandering Minstrel is an awesome card. I predict that it will be the most popular $4 village. It cycles your deck, and if you're playing a deck that has villages, you want those Actions! WM + anything that has draw will help you get to your good actions, especially terminals, fast.
3. Catacombs is a great card. It's like Navigator that does everything you want.
4. Squire is a power $2, even if you can't turn it into an attack by trashing. +$1 and gain a Silver is strong.
5. In a 2p game, I played a Feodum deck with great success: the support was Armory, Squire, and Rebuild.
6. Altar is not necessarily a power card, but it is fairly priced.
7. Necropolis in your deck does not wildly change the how-many-terminals-can-I-have calculus. I think I benefited once in three games. I benefited from the Overgrown Estate's TfB and Hovel's self-trash in every game.
8. After playing several games with Pillage and Bandit Camp, I am still having a lot of trouble evaluating them and Spoils.

I am going off to play some more games now. Wish me luck!

P.S. Rene Deathcart
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:01:05 am by sitnaltax »
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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 08:40:10 pm »
+15

P.S. Rene Deathcart

I trash, therefore I am.
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 09:34:39 pm »
0

I only managed to get in 1 game of Dark Ages in the RGG exhibition room before getting kicked off a table by a group of 4 people. It's hard getting in games when you're here by yourself...

The game that I played didn't have any attacks or looters or any fancy stuff; I just remembered building an engine that used Market Square (?) to gain Golds and Counterfeit to double-play those Golds. Counterfeit is a pretty good card.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 09:36:23 pm »
0

I'm here at GenCon, and my friend & roommate bought Dark Ages, and we've been playing 2p.

1. Dark Ages is awesome.
2. Wandering Minstrel is an awesome card. I predict that it will be the most popular $4 village. It cycles your deck, and if you're playing a deck that has villages, you want those Actions! WM + anything that has draw will help you get to your good actions, especially terminals, fast.
3. Catacombs is a great card. It's like Navigator that does everything you want.
4. Squire is a power $2, even if you can't turn it into an attack by trashing. +$1 and gain a Silver is strong.
5. In a 2p game, I played a Feodum deck with great success: the support was Armory, Squire, and Rebuild.
6. Altar is not necessarily a power card, but it is fairly priced.
7. Necropolis in your deck does not wildly change the how-many-terminals-can-I-have calculus. I think I benefited once in three games. I benefited from the Overgrown Estate's TfB and Hovel's self-trash in every game.
8. After playing several games with Pillage and Bandit Camp, I am still having a lot of trouble evaluating them and Spoils.

I am going off to play some more games now. Wish me luck!

P.S. Rene Deathcart

Great report. Hope to hear more soon.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 12:17:37 am »
0

I have friends at GenCon, and I forgot to give them to cash to pick up Dark Ages. Did you see if they had a method for taking cards? And would just looking up "Rio Grande Games" be able to direct someone to the right place?

Also, how much did you get it for? On Amazon there's a bit of a difference between list price and what they were selling it for. If it's list price then I might as well wait.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 12:25:40 am by Diving Pikachu »
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sitnaltax

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 01:58:41 am »
+3

I have now played with each of these at least once in an all-Dark-Ages 2p Kingdom.

I have seen both BM and engine strategies work. I have also seen a different kind of strategy where you buy too many terminals, because some will get trashed possibly for benefit, or they have a dual purpose that can give Actions if needed(Band of Misfits, Squire). I'm not sure whether this will be a long-term popular strategy but it has won games.

Altar: I still feel this is fair but not dynamite. If I get $5 and you get $6 we'll both do OK.

Armory: Puzzle writers will love this most of all. Having one is great because you can pick up what you need. Got two terminals left in your deck? Stick a Village on top. Only card left in your deck is a Village? Put a Smithy on top. Will also work with the usual alt-VP suspects--the topdeck isn't a big deal--and definitely nice with Feodum.

Band of Misfits: Usually playable; sometimes awesome if there are two cheaper cards either of which you might want to play, like a village and a drawer.

Bandit Camp: Like Festival, very strong, even if you don't necessarily use both actions.

Beggar: Never purchased.

Catacombs: Dynamite. Comparable in power to Embassy, I think. Works either with BM or an engine or a deck that's trying to squeeze in too many terminals.

Count: As fascinating as you thought. Not a strong enough trasher to build a deck around, but supports either BM or engine. Will work well in many decks.

Counterfeit: Never bought. Am I missing something? I think this is a weak card.

Cultist: Strong, but not as strong as I had thought; Ruins are much less horrible than Curses.

Death Cart: Pray that you collide it with one of the Ruins or at least Necropolis. Did you know that $5 is a lot of money? It'll buy you a province almost every time. This is a power card.

Feodum: Not a game-changer without support, which is, generally, the support you would expect. Squire worked well. I don't believe trashing Feodums for the silver in the absence of other support is viable.

Forager: Weak and slow unless you need to trash, or if trashing attacks put expensive treasures in the trash.

Fortress: The special ability never came up. Will be funny when say Swindler or a Knight hits it, but will not be considered as good as Mining Village.

Graverobber: Never came up, despite the presence of Knights. I continue to think this is weak and awkwardly costed.

Hermit: This is a powerful card, gaining Silver or copies of itself and trashing junk in a powerful way where it can be in your discard! Also works on Squires, hopefully in your discard as well. The Madman ability is (powerful) icing on the cake; hope you have buys!

Hunting Grounds: $6 for +4 cards is weak. You need to have a plan to trash it, hopefully something like Apprentice, Procession, or Hermit after it's in your discard.

Ironmonger: This is surprisingly good. Hitting a Victory card is especially nice because you get to cycle the card away. Cycling away Copper is good too. You hope to not hit an action usually. You will always confuse this card with Ironworks.

Junk Dealer: Strong and solid; the Dark Ages equivalent of Lab.

Marauder: This is a weird one and I am still having trouble evaluating Spoils. I don't think it's worth it unless the Ruins are going to seriously interfere with the opponent.

Market Square: If you're planning to trash or have your cards trashed, clearly good. Hurts less than Tunnel early if you draw it "dead" without being able to activate it, but I don't think you'll open it except maybe with Hermit.

Mystic: Showed up a lot and never purchased. Maybe I am missing something? I think this will be considered a weak $5 unless you happen to have a card that supports it... like Apothecary or, you know... Scout.

Pillage: The self-trashing is odd. The directed discard will drive engine players NUTS (it takes away the combo piece you need) and isn't so terrible for BM.

Poor House: Never purchased. Will be important in certain engine games but I didn't see any of those.

Procession: Bought, but not to great effect. I think this will be very powerful in a small number of games (upgrade from Caravan to Lab, if it gets you to Goons, GM) but usually a risky buy--you have to collide it with just the right card with the right combination of Actions available.

Rats: Managing the rats with the rest of your deck takes a lot of effort. You'll need a good memory for exactly what you have and where it is, and you need good trashing support. I think most players will be well-served to avoid Rats in most cases, but it'll feel great when you pull it off.

Rebuild: This is a powerful point source. I actually gained Estate with Hermit just so I could leverage it! It'll be especially good in non-Shelter games where the Estates make an attractive target. In most cases you'll name Province or Colony, whatever you don't want to hit.

Rogue: Difficult to suss. Not usually a devastating attack, but the $2 keeps it from having the problems of Graverobber. Works nicely if you are putting cards into the trash yourself--Apprentice's best friend.

Sage: More difficult to wrap my head around than I thought at first; will be difficult to figure out the exact number you should buy. Still a good card and a good early buy.

Scavenger: Yes, this is the card you always wanted Chancellor to be. It's powerful and lets you play your good cards a lot, like a Chancellor-Scheme. Notice that the topdecking doesn't require you to discard your deck.

Squire: +$1, +2A would be an OK village at $2. +$1, gain a silver would be great. Having the option of both, with the buys and the ability to turn it into an attack, is just fantastic. This will certainly be in the top 3 $2 cards, and I think probably above Hamlet.

Storeroom: At first I thought it sucked. Then I thought it was fantastic. Now I'm back to thinking it's a trap and you'll wish you just had Silver.

Urchin: This is obviously a super weak attack, but Mercenary is awesome unless your deck is trimmed. You'll want to combo it with a better attack, not itself, but if you have such an attack and hit $3 or $4 Urchin looks like it can be good.

Vagrant: Not a power $2; in line with Pearl Diver.

Wandering Minstrel: As I said above, this is an awesome Village and in my mind definitely the top $4 except in special circumstances.

Knights: Forget the differences between the Knights. What's going to piss you off during play is when you hit two Coppers and I hit your Duchy. The ability for them to fight and kill each other is cute, but I never saw it happen.

Ruins: These are nowhere near as bad as Curses. Losing the Ruins split isn't awful at all, although to be fair we had good trashing. Not that any of them are worth buying, but: Abandoned Mine is the best. Ruined Library is second--the +Card is likely to draw something dead. Survivors is third; the discard can come in handy. Ruined Market and Ruined Village are the worst, with the slight preference going to the Market.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:07:21 am by sitnaltax »
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sitnaltax

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 02:00:18 am »
0

I have friends at GenCon, and I forgot to give them to cash to pick up Dark Ages. Did you see if they had a method for taking cards? And would just looking up "Rio Grande Games" be able to direct someone to the right place?

Also, how much did you get it for? On Amazon there's a bit of a difference between list price and what they were selling it for. If it's list price then I might as well wait.

I believe they can take plastic, although I'm not positive. I'm not sure the name of the booth, but it was near the front of the exhibit hall and a little bit of asking around should get you there.

We got it for $45, which I believe is list price.
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Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 02:49:09 am »
+1

Some of my thoughts:

Rats - Not intuitive, but there's definitely got to be some crazy strategies here.  On the board, but never purchased.
Knights - Looked neat, but again didn't purchase them - other cards seemed too fast.
Vagrant - Never found a use for this card either - other cards had so much drawing power.
Scavenger - Exactly what it looks like, a decently better Chancellor.  Would be more interesting if it were a cantrip.
Storeroom - Seemed like it would be a decent opener, but now I'm not so sure.
Rebuild - Cannot understand this for the life of me.
Sage - Never found a strong use, perhaps there is one, but in my games the opportunity cost was too high.
Pillage - Powerhouse, especially if comboed with Graverobber/Rogue and a village.  Very surprised.
Poor House - I'm sure this is board dependant.
Procession - With lots of Dark Ages card, Procession ROCKS ... a lot more than you'd expect.  Procession/Fortress/Band of Misfits (now dubbed BOM) was a very strong mid-game combo especially when combined with card draw and buys.
Junk Dealer - the use of this card only becomes apparent after playing a few Dark Ages games.  Slow trashing isn't too dangerous, especially with Overgrown Estate, Hovel, Fortress, etc.
Marauder - Didn't get to use this one, but judging by the effects of other cards, this looks comparable to Sea Hag.
Market Square - interesting card - very good in an engine when you can use it multiple times (by discarding then fully redrawing again) and then use the buy at the end.  Even one reaction use to gain a gold, then using the buy is powerful.  Trashing cards (again, especially Fortress or a Fortress/BOM/Hunting Grounds combo)
Mystic - Didn't understand this until late in the games.  Could be very uesful with Graverobber or Rogue.
Graverobber - Very interesting with Pillage.  Other powerful uses TBD - perhaps combos like Village/Graverobber/Pillage/Village or Mystic, Village/Graverobber/BOM/Village or Mystic/continue combo, etc.
Hunting Grounds - Boy oh boy is +4 cards strong.  Also a very convenient pricepoint to be trashed into via Procession.
Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.
Cultist - pretty awesome if you know when to time the purchases and how many to get, depending on your and your opponent's deck composition.  Much better if you can upgrade these somehow (Upgrade, Procession, maybe even Salvager) - a TFB with the trash benefit is better than it looks.
Forager - Pretty strong in the mid/late game, especially when you need +buys.  Basically an alternate trade route.
Fortress - such a neat village.  The untrashability can make trashing it very desirable (again, procession, etc)
Catacombs - Looks interesting, but there wasn't time to purchase it in the games we played.  Also seems like it would combo well with Procession (with a cost 4 and 6 cost action on the table, like Fortress and Hunting Grounds)
Armory - Probably situational.  Seems decent, especially if you can play it a few times relatively early on decent actions, then upgrade out of it (again, Procession).
Band of Misfits (BOM) - The $5 pricepoint is perfect - you end up upgrading from $4's into BOM's that have the same effect with no penalty (again, Procession), and then perhaps even upgrading to a power 6.  Procession/Fortress/BOM/Hunting Grounds was very strong.
Bandit Camp - Hard to figure out when to buy this.
Feodum - Didn't play with it yet and our games were not silver centric.
Urchin - Didn't play with it yet, but I have a feeling that Mercenary is relatively strong for some reason.
Wandering Minstrel - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.
Squire - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.  Probably very board dependent.
Hermit - Didn't play with it yet, but looks very interesting.  Grabbing a Madman or multiple Madmans/Madmen? could probably lead up to a nice mega-turn if done correctly.
Death Card - Didn't play with it yet, probably very strong with a drawing engine (you can trash the Ruins you gain with it).
Beggar - Didn't play with it yet, but doesn't look particularly strong.  Maybe good defense in alt-VP games with attacks.
Count - Didn't play with it yet, but looks pretty good if there's +actions on the board.
Counterfeit - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.
Altar - Didn't play with it yet, jury is out.

Necropolis - Does help engine play, a nice addition to your starting deck.
Overgrown Estate - a small bonus for a card that's likely to be trashed anyway.
Hovel - situational.  Unsure yet how Great Hall, Tunnel, etc will affect this.

Takeaways:
- Shelters are probably more fun to play with except when you get different splits on a YW/Tunnel game.
- Combos are very prevalent (and very, very fun).
- Keeping track of actions, coins, etc is very, very difficult and may require pen & paper for those without excellent memories.
- Procession in conjunction with other Dark Ages cards may just have the highest combo potential.  Perhaps I didn't play enough games.
- BOM, Pillage, Necropolis, Procession, Junk Dealer, Graverobber, and Fortress seem better than expected.
- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

All in all, this set is full of excitement, combos, and great new cards.  I eagerly await the Dark Ages cards to be added to the Dominion Shuffle android app.

Edit: and for some reason, the box image seems slightly off-center to the left.  Anyone else notice that?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:50:45 am by Rhombus »
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rspeer

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 03:24:01 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.
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Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 03:32:28 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.

Interesting, that's a bit surprising.  I'm curious, any idea why?
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 04:35:24 am »
0

Thanks. Knew altar ain't gonna be a big deal, its just an Expand. :P
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Geronimoo

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 04:55:34 am »
0

- Storeroom and Sage feel worse than expected, and I didn't like Sage to begin with - perhaps I'm missing something.

Well, in my brief simulating earlier on, I found that Sage has the rare honor of making a better combo with JoaT than a second JoaT does.

Not that that means you need to like it.
Sage was very simple to implement so I did the same experiment. The play rules for Jack are slightly better in my sim than in Dominiate and doubleJack has exactly the same overall win rate as Jack/Sage (the $4/$3 opening favors Sage by 1-2% and $5/$2 favors doubleJack by 4-5%)
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 09:17:24 am »
+3

I love how there are two Dark Ages cards (Hermit and Scavenger) that are very similar to some Base cards (Workshop and Chancellor) that most people dislike, but the same qualities that they are disliked for are the ones the Dark Ages cards seem to be liked for.

Workshop - Gain something worth up to $4 "Omg, ew, how many $4 cards do you need?  $5s are SO much better."

Hermit - Gain something worth up to $3 "OMG YOU CAN GET SILVERS."

Well... you could use the Workshop to get Silvers, too...  I do like the discard-trash thing on Hermit, but seeing so many people squee about its crappy Workshop deal is weird.

Chancellor - You may put your deck in your discard "Omg, ew, that's stupid and I'd never buy that."

Scavenger - You may put your deck in your discard "OMG THAT'S SO POWERFUL."

Granted, Scavenger lets you top-deck, and I like that, but still.
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 10:57:22 am »
+2

Counterfeit: Never bought. Am I missing something? I think this is a weak card.

It's a fantastic engine accelerator - at minimum, +$2 on a nonterminal trasher that gives +buy; it also combos well with Treasure gainers. Can it double-play Spoils? That would be a rather strong synergy as well.
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 11:02:35 am »
+4

I love how there are two Dark Ages cards (Hermit and Scavenger) that are very similar to some Base cards (Workshop and Chancellor) that most people dislike, but the same qualities that they are disliked for are the ones the Dark Ages cards seem to be liked for.

Workshop - Gain something worth up to $4 "Omg, ew, how many $4 cards do you need?  $5s are SO much better."

Hermit - Gain something worth up to $3 "OMG YOU CAN GET SILVERS."

Well... you could use the Workshop to get Silvers, too...  I do like the discard-trash thing on Hermit, but seeing so many people squee about its crappy Workshop deal is weird.

Chancellor - You may put your deck in your discard "Omg, ew, that's stupid and I'd never buy that."

Scavenger - You may put your deck in your discard "OMG THAT'S SO POWERFUL."

Granted, Scavenger lets you top-deck, and I like that, but still.

Hermit is not OMG You can gain silvers. It's OMG it can trash AND gain silvers; which is much more like JoaT than workshop.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 01:50:10 pm »
0

Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.

I think you are totally off with that assessment.
The first thing I thought when I read Ironmonger was that it is really strong for a $4 card!
I think it should be a hot contender for a new top 10 of $4 cards. It should usually be considerably better than Caravan. But it is just as easily spammable, so its presence should often be reason enough to make an early Ironworks, Armory or Workshop worthwhile (it almost always is if there is some $4 card you want after the Ironmongers run out).

Ironmonger is usually either a Village or a Laboratory or a Peddler and *additionally* has Jack's filter effect (which is certainly non-neglibile, it can be quite useful). There is another bonus in the fact that it is action cards which give +actions. If there is an action card on your deck, there should be an above-average probability that you can make use of the +action - you might well have another card to draw the action on top and Ironmonger gave you the action to play it as well.
All this is really decent for a $4 card!
Having several dual-type cards (Nobles, Harem, Great Hall, Island and Dame Josephine) in your deck even makes Ironmonger considerably better, while several Curses in it make it weaker. Playing with Shelters makes it a little weaker due to the one Hovel in the deck (which is so far the only card except Curse which is neither Action nor Treasure nor Victory), but as that is only one card, it obviously shouldn't be too important for the strength of Ironmonger.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 01:53:21 pm by Varsinor »
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Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 02:01:57 pm »
0

Ironmonger - Jury is out, but doesn't feel strong.

I think you are totally off with that assessment.
The first thing I thought when I read Ironmonger was that it is really strong for a $4 card!
I think it should be a hot contender for a new top 10 of $4 cards. It should usually be considerably better than Caravan. But it is just as easily spammable, so its presence should often be reason enough to make an early Ironworks, Armory or Workshop worthwhile (it almost always is if there is some $4 card you want after the Ironmongers run out).

Ironmonger is usually either a Village or a Laboratory or a Peddler and *additionally* has Jack's filter effect (which is certainly non-neglibile, it can be quite useful). There is another bonus in the fact that it is action cards which give +actions. If there is an action card on your deck, there should be an above-average probability that you can make use of the +action - you might well have another card to draw the action on top and Ironmonger gave you the action to play it as well.
All this is really decent for a $4 card!
Having several dual-type cards (Nobles, Harem, Great Hall, Island and Dame Josephine) in your deck even makes Ironmonger considerably better, while several Curses in it make it weaker. Playing with Shelters makes it a little weaker due to the one Hovel in the deck (which is so far the only card except Curse which is neither Action nor Treasure nor Victory), but as that is only one card, it obviously shouldn't be too important for the strength of Ironmonger.

I guess I wonder how much that filter ability is worth (Spy is the 5th worst $4).  A vanilla village is only worth $3, Lab $5, Peddler ~$4, and on top of all that, it's unreliable and in that way also reminds me of Tribute, but with your own deck (and less potential benefit).  Undoubtedly, dual-type cards start to make this much stronger.  Also in comparison to jack, once you filter, you don't get to pick up that card (without another combo piece).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 02:07:38 pm »
+2

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 02:20:04 pm »
0

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Those arguments make sense to me.  Do you think it'll work well in many different deck types or only specific ones?

If you think Peddler is a strong 4, what are your thoughts on Junk Dealer?
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 02:48:49 pm »
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it's unreliable and in that way also reminds me of Tribute,

I think the biggest drawback of Tribute's unreliability is that you don't know in advance if you can safely play it if you have other actions (but no village) in your hand. And if you hit Victory cards with Tribute, you may draw new actions dead. Maybe you'll still be able to play other actions afterwards, maybe not.
If Tribute had an innate +action, it would be much stronger!

You don't have that drawback with Ironmonger, it is a guaranteed cantrip. Therefore, it's unreliability should be much less of an issue.

but with your own deck

The fact that it is with your own deck should be a non-neglibible advantage of Ironmonger over Tribute for the following reasons:
1. For the majority of the game, faster deck cycling helps you to get to your new and strong cards faster. (The number of turns in which you are greening is usually much smaller than the number of turns in which you are improving your deck.) Therefore, you'd rather not help to cycle your opponent's deck by two cards every time you play Tribute.
2. You are not dependent on the decisions of your opponent, but can try to optimize your deck composition for the needs of your Ironmongers. (This is particularly but not only important when there are dual-type cards which your opponent may actively hold off on buying once he sees or anticipates you buying Tributes.)

(and less potential benefit).

Sure, you can't hit two dual-type cards, just one. But you have much less potential suckyness as well: When you hit a Curse or a Hovel with an Ironmonger, you mostly had the effect of a Laboratory! Why is that? You had the cantrip effect of +1 action, +1 card and got to filter a useless card away - which in most cases is just as good as having drawn it in your hand (except if you could have trashed it there or reshuffled during your turn).
If you hit two Curses / Hovels with a Tribute, you wasted an action *and* a card slot for absolutely nothing.
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Jorbles

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 02:49:49 pm »
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Has anyone played a game with both a Curser and a Ruiner? How bad are they?
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 02:55:22 pm »
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Has anyone played a game with both a Curser and a Ruiner? How bad are they?

The initial report says Cultist isn't as good. My suspicion is we haven't found the ideal way to play them yet. For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 02:55:31 pm »
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while several Curses in it make it weaker.

Actually, when I wrote my posting above, I realized that this statement wasn't even necessarily true. Sure, when you hit a Curse you get no direct bonus, but when you hit a Curse is just when the filtering effect shines. So even Curses probably don't make Ironmongers that much weaker.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 02:58:47 pm »
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For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.
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Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 03:16:16 pm »
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For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.

Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.
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Voltaire

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2012, 03:19:13 pm »
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For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.

Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.
Though my game also had Mountebank buying out curses, Cultist collision was very rare, even though I was buying many of them and had some sort of sifter. I think the "You may play enother" can't be treated as the primary part of the card - it'll be very rare except in the smallest of kingdoms.
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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 03:20:23 pm »
0

For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.

Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.

I would also go for Cultist first for the chaining aspect. Going for Witch first means that by the time you do go Cultist, your deck will start to get junked up and you are less likely to chain your own Cultists.
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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 03:23:09 pm »
0

For instance in a Witch/Cultist match I suspect you want to buy cultist on your first 2 fives and then alternate duchy cultist after that otherwises the curses will kill you when piles run (they will)

I haven't gotten in on that debate in the other threads, but I am quite convinced that you'll want to buy a Witch before Cultist.

Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.

I would also go for Cultist first for the chaining aspect. Going for Witch first means that by the time you do go Cultist, your deck will start to get junked up and you are less likely to chain your own Cultists.
But going witch first means you get a lead, which is really big and important when piles are running out NOW. I mean, you probably go cultist with good trashing, but otherwise, in the mirror, I am pretty sure I'm going witch.

Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 03:43:27 pm »
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Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.

What you say is true, these are reasons to buy Cultists over Witch and there are obviously cases where I would want to do that - particularly when there are trash-for-benefit cards which you can use on your Cultists or when your opponents buy lots of Knights, Tricksters and/or Saboteurs. In these cases, the on-trash-benefits of Cultist get quite important.
(I just chose to not include a remark about board-dependentness in my previous posting... ;))

The chaining aspect is nice of course, but it seems to me that many people overrate that. Remember that it probably doesn't take too long before the Ruins run out, particularly if the players chain their Cultists. And after that, chaining Cultists becomes much less of a benefit. Furthermore, the more Ruins and Curses clog up your deck, the less likely you'll be able to chain them.

On the other hand, the advantage of Witch over Cultist should be clear I think: The benefit Witch has over Cultist is that Curses are much worse than Ruins. It is not only the -1 point (although that is important enough particularly in slow games with Curses and Ruins in which there may likely be a Duchy run), it is also the fact that the action parts of the Ruins make them considerably better than dead cards during the game.

All in all, I think that I'll buy Witch before Cultist on considerably more boards than the other way around (at least when we are talking about random boards and not about All-Dark-Ages-boards with a higher probability that the on-trash-benefit of the Cultists is relevant).
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 03:45:58 pm by Varsinor »
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rinkworks

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 03:52:30 pm »
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If you think Peddler is a strong 4, what are your thoughts on Junk Dealer?

That question wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway.  I say it's a solid card, competitive with Treasury, Market, Bazaar, and Highway, and possibly the best of these more often than not.  I regularly play with a fan card of my own that costs $1 less and offers +1 Buy instead of +$1.  It's a powerful opener, much stronger than you'd think.  But it's a big jump to $5, so Junk Dealer has a higher bar to clear.

It's worth comparing to Upgrade, despite that Junk Dealer is a trasher and Upgrade ostensibly a Remodel variant.  I say ostensibly, because although some great tricks (Upgrade an Upgrade to Grand Market; Upgrade Forge to Province) are possible with Upgrade that Junk Dealer can't do, usually you use Upgrade as a trasher, converting Estates to Silvers and Coppers/Curses to nothing.  In this regard, Junk Dealer is clearly better.  It's conditionally not as good as Upgrade for trashing Estates (+$1 vs. gaining a Silver), but Junk Dealer is clearly superior when trashing Coppers, Curses, Ruins, and usually Shelters.

I think the only time you wouldn't want a Junk Dealer is if you're also using some other trasher that is aggressive.  If you've got nothing to trash, Junk Dealer is a dead card, whereas any other Peddler-with-a-bonus would be better.
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dghunter79

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2012, 04:56:08 pm »
+2

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2012, 05:10:15 pm »
+1

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Top 5?? I forget what you had at #5, but that seems a bit high. Top 10 maybe, but the current general consensus for top 5 are Tournament, Remake, Jack, Hag, and Young Witch. Some people argued Monument or Bishop were up there... I can't imagine Ironmonger actually being better than any of these. It's lab-like in action-light decks, which is good but not great, and probably not even as good in action-heavy decks, where it seems it will be too unreliable to be your primary village. Don't get me wrong, it's going to be a generally good card, but not that good. It's closer to Caravan power level than Jack power level.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2012, 05:13:32 pm »
0

I'm going to go on record and say that I expect ironmonger to be a top-5 $4 card.
If it always gave you the village-with-a-filter, that would be a $4 (albeit a pretty weak one); the peddler-with-filter would be a very very strong 4 - I think regular peddler is a strong 4; and lab-with-THAT-filter would be a strong $5. Now, you do have the unreliability concern, but I just don't see this being anything worse than very very strong.
Spy is weak because ALL it does is a piddling little filter (albeit for your opponent too, though that bit doesn't stack as well).

Top 5?? I forget what you had at #5, but that seems a bit high. Top 10 maybe, but the current general consensus for top 5 are Tournament, Remake, Jack, Hag, and Young Witch. Some people argued Monument or Bishop were up there... I can't imagine Ironmonger actually being better than any of these. It's lab-like in action-light decks, which is good but not great, and probably not even as good in action-heavy decks, where it seems it will be too unreliable to be your primary village. Don't get me wrong, it's going to be a generally good card, but not that good. It's closer to Caravan power level than Jack power level.
Looks about on par with tournament to me, in all seriousness, and that is the basis for my comparison. Edit: Eh, I guess that makes this #6 most likely? But closer to 5 than 7.

Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2012, 05:22:45 pm »
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Top 5?? I forget what you had at #5, but that seems a bit high.

Maybe #5 after the current top 4.
But I'd be more likely to put Ironmonger on #6 or #7.
I'd rank it ahead of the current #7 Bishop (and all lower cards and also all other new $4 cards), though.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 05:24:57 pm by Varsinor »
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2012, 05:53:08 pm »
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Why?  Cultists chaining is nice (so you can give out junk more quickly).  It also depends if there's a trasher, because once Ruins are low/out, you can trash Cultists for a nice benefit as well, likely putting yourself in position for a Province buy.

What you say is true, these are reasons to buy Cultists over Witch and there are obviously cases where I would want to do that - particularly when there are trash-for-benefit cards which you can use on your Cultists or when your opponents buy lots of Knights, Tricksters and/or Saboteurs. In these cases, the on-trash-benefits of Cultist get quite important.
(I just chose to not include a remark about board-dependentness in my previous posting... ;))

The chaining aspect is nice of course, but it seems to me that many people overrate that. Remember that it probably doesn't take too long before the Ruins run out, particularly if the players chain their Cultists. And after that, chaining Cultists becomes much less of a benefit. Furthermore, the more Ruins and Curses clog up your deck, the less likely you'll be able to chain them.

On the other hand, the advantage of Witch over Cultist should be clear I think: The benefit Witch has over Cultist is that Curses are much worse than Ruins. It is not only the -1 point (although that is important enough particularly in slow games with Curses and Ruins in which there may likely be a Duchy run), it is also the fact that the action parts of the Ruins make them considerably better than dead cards during the game.

All in all, I think that I'll buy Witch before Cultist on considerably more boards than the other way around (at least when we are talking about random boards and not about All-Dark-Ages-boards with a higher probability that the on-trash-benefit of the Cultists is relevant).

The collision makes them NEARLY as good as labs with the side effect of you can only play cultists, and buying a bunch of labs is strong enough on its own. they collide reasonably often even in cursing games.
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2012, 06:00:25 pm »
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In the absence of other noticeable cards in the kingdom, I would hazard Witch over Cultist as well. Cultist will only deal out Ruins marginally faster than Witches will deal out Curses (you're banking on the Cultist collision to deal out junk cards faster, but both will be head to head on the first 3-4 plays when the Cultist player either has 1 or 2 Cultists in a deck of >15 cards). But Curses being -1 VP makes Witch so much better. I recall earlier that someone simulated what would happen if Curse was a +1 VP card instead: Witch-BM started losing to Smithy-BM by a high margin.

I'd think where Cultist would actually be very good is if there is a strong engine to transition into. A 2-Cultist chain increases your handsize by the same amount as a Smithy (but has further reach), and because there will almost definitely be a trasher in such a kingdom, Cultist's on-trash ability will also see use.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 06:01:40 pm by dondon151 »
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2012, 06:10:56 pm »
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Ok here is my full thoughts.

on dondons -1vp +1vp change on curse, thats not really the relevant thing here we are giving 0VP instead we aren't giving estates.

WITCH-BM wants 2 witches.

Cultist wants as many cultists as it can and minor money, but in the matchup I think you opt to only buy silver early.

My general approach for cultist on a 4/3 right now looks something like this

Open Silver Silver
First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.
Once you have 4/5 cultists start buying silver when you miss 5 (don't buy anything else before this ruins up your collision chance)

In the scenario witch-BM obviously has to switch gears into duchy's as well because the piles will run out long before provinces matter (although if either deck has the option it should obviously buy a province)

So what it comes down to is IF you collide your cultists early, even ONE collision of your cultists can be game altering because you get that one extra bad card into witch causing a snowball while you continue to buy VP and cultists

Edit: TBH I would love to run my cultist strategy into a simulator as there isn't THAT much human decision involved.

Edit2: A small script for when cultist is implemented into dominate

Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'DoubleCultist'
  requires: ['Cultist']
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Colony"
    "Province"
    "Cultist" if my.countInDeck("Cultist") < 2
    "Duchy" if my.countInDeck("Duchy") < my.countInDeck("Cultist")
    "Cultist"
    "Estate" if 0 < state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Platinum"
    "Gold"
    "Silver"
  ]
}


I'd also write it for geronimoo's simulator but I can't seem to right a condition for buying if you have less of it then another card in your deck.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 06:21:51 pm by Insomniac »
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2012, 06:25:18 pm »
0

on dondons -1vp +1vp change on curse, thats not really the relevant thing here we are giving 0VP instead we aren't giving estates.

What? Of course it's relevant! If Curses gave 1 VP instead of -1 VP, then it makes Witch-BM a weak strategy. If Curses were Ruins instead, then Witch-BM would still be significantly weaker.
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2012, 06:28:01 pm »
0

on dondons -1vp +1vp change on curse, thats not really the relevant thing here we are giving 0VP instead we aren't giving estates.

What? Of course it's relevant! If Curses gave 1 VP instead of -1 VP, then it makes Witch-BM a weak strategy. If Curses were Ruins instead, then Witch-BM would still be significantly weaker.

Of course if curses gave 1vp theyd be weaker, but ruins don't give 1vp they give 0vp, so a 2VP difference is not the same as a 1VP difference. If Witch-BM gave curses worth 0vp im willing to bet it'd beat smithy bm,
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2012, 06:32:17 pm »
0

on dondons -1vp +1vp change on curse, thats not really the relevant thing here we are giving 0VP instead we aren't giving estates.

Well, I think Ruins are closer to an Estate than to a 0 VP Victory card. Maybe even better: If you could choose between gaining a Ruin and gaining an Estate, you would probably take a ('generic') Ruin until the endgame most of the time (absent Baron and Silk Road, of course). They don't have a VP, but they can be used as actions and are thus better than dead cards.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2012, 06:39:26 pm »
0

First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.

Why would you want to rotate between Cultists and Duchies?
I see no good reason why you should want to go back to buying Cultists after you started buying Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies). Unless you realize in the middle of the game you made a mistake by going Duchy too early, of course. But in an optimal strategy, why should you buy Cultists after starting to green?
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2012, 06:47:32 pm »
0

Junk Dealer: Strong and solid; the Dark Ages equivalent of Lab.

It doesn't remind me of Lab at all. It even leaves you with a 4 card hand after playing it instead of the 6 card hand Lab gives you.
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2012, 06:53:17 pm »
0

First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.

Why would you want to rotate between Cultists and Duchies?
I see no good reason why you should want to go back to buying Cultists after you started buying Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies). Unless you realize in the middle of the game you made a mistake by going Duchy too early, of course. But in an optimal strategy, why should you buy Cultists after starting to green?

If you run the duchies then thats three piles, you keep buying cultists to keep your draw up. Even after the ruins are gone they give you a lab effect if you get them together and a 6 card hand otherwise (if they don't collide then you don't have any other actions in hand)
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Jorbles

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2012, 07:01:05 pm »
0

First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.

Why would you want to rotate between Cultists and Duchies?
I see no good reason why you should want to go back to buying Cultists after you started buying Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies). Unless you realize in the middle of the game you made a mistake by going Duchy too early, of course. But in an optimal strategy, why should you buy Cultists after starting to green?

If you run the duchies then thats three piles, you keep buying cultists to keep your draw up. Even after the ruins are gone they give you a lab effect if you get them together and a 6 card hand otherwise (if they don't collide then you don't have any other actions in hand)
If your plan is to run out the Cultists pile wouldn't it make more sense to buy them all out first and then switch to Duchies? (also I don't think that's a very good plan)
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2012, 07:12:08 pm »
0

First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.

Why would you want to rotate between Cultists and Duchies?
I see no good reason why you should want to go back to buying Cultists after you started buying Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies). Unless you realize in the middle of the game you made a mistake by going Duchy too early, of course. But in an optimal strategy, why should you buy Cultists after starting to green?

If you run the duchies then thats three piles, you keep buying cultists to keep your draw up. Even after the ruins are gone they give you a lab effect if you get them together and a 6 card hand otherwise (if they don't collide then you don't have any other actions in hand)
If your plan is to run out the Cultists pile wouldn't it make more sense to buy them all out first and then switch to Duchies? (also I don't think that's a very good plan)

That is not the plan, the plan is curses/ruins/duchies with you having gained enough vp on extra duchies to beat the witch player
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2012, 07:19:56 pm »
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That is not the plan, the plan is curses/ruins/duchies with you having gained enough vp on extra duchies to beat the witch player

I don't see any convincing argument in what you wrote why you should plan to alternate between Cultists and Duchies.
If you want to three pile, buy Cultists until it is optimal to go green and after that buy Duchies with every $5 until they are gone.
If you instead buy Cultist after a Duchy, it would have been better to do it the other way round (unless Duchies are gone), because that might have given you an opportunity to use your additional Cultist instead of having a dead Duchy in your deck.

On a different note, I don't think it is good to not buy Cultists after starting Witch. I'd propose to usually buy one Witch and Cultists after that (assuming there are no other $5- cards that you want instead).
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 07:27:01 pm by Varsinor »
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Jorbles

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2012, 07:42:12 pm »
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First 2 or 3 5's buy cultist. after this rotate between cultist and duchy.

Why would you want to rotate between Cultists and Duchies?
I see no good reason why you should want to go back to buying Cultists after you started buying Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies). Unless you realize in the middle of the game you made a mistake by going Duchy too early, of course. But in an optimal strategy, why should you buy Cultists after starting to green?

If you run the duchies then thats three piles, you keep buying cultists to keep your draw up. Even after the ruins are gone they give you a lab effect if you get them together and a 6 card hand otherwise (if they don't collide then you don't have any other actions in hand)
If your plan is to run out the Cultists pile wouldn't it make more sense to buy them all out first and then switch to Duchies? (also I don't think that's a very good plan)

That is not the plan, the plan is curses/ruins/duchies with you having gained enough vp on extra duchies to beat the witch player

This plan might beat DoubleWitch as it's programmed because it is programmed to go for Provinces, but wouldn't it make more sense to put it up against a DoubleWitch deck with its strategy adjusted to buy Duchies and go for a three pile? That more closely mimics what I suspect most humans would do. They'd have a 10 point lead because of the Curses in the DoubleCultist deck, which I think would give them a big advantage even with your strats ability to chain Cultists.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 07:43:55 pm by Jorbles »
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RD

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2012, 08:10:04 pm »
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Ironmonger is usually either a Village or a Laboratory or a Peddler and *additionally* has Jack's filter effect (which is certainly non-neglibile, it can be quite useful). There is another bonus in the fact that it is action cards which give +actions. If there is an action card on your deck, there should be an above-average probability that you can make use of the +action - you might well have another card to draw the action on top and Ironmonger gave you the action to play it as well.
All this is really decent for a $4 card!

Plus, the Action option in particular has great self-synergy in that a high Action density means you're more likely to get the free Action, and also more likely to have a use for it.

On the other hand Big Money still has a use for Peddler. And almost all decks can use a Lab with an impeccably-timed bonus filtering effect, but green-heavy decks most of all. Which is good because almost all decks have Victory cards at some point, but green-heavy decks most of all!

Someone mentioned that a benefit of Ironmonger over Tribute was that you can tailor your deck to get the effects you want. That's certainly true, especially in case of the +Actions option, but it looks as though you don't have to go too far out of your way; Ironworks will do a lot of the work for you. Obviously there are going to be many exceptions but the only major class I can think of is a nonterminal-heavy deck that doesn't need +Actions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 08:12:52 pm by RD »
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dondon151

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2012, 10:52:57 pm »
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Of course if curses gave 1vp theyd be weaker, but ruins don't give 1vp they give 0vp, so a 2VP difference is not the same as a 1VP difference. If Witch-BM gave curses worth 0vp im willing to bet it'd beat smithy bm,

And I'm willing to bet that it would just barely beat Smithy-BM instead of absolutely wrecking it like it should.

But this isn't about Witch-BM with 0 VP Curses vs. Smithy-BM; this is Witch-BM vs. Cultist-BM. If the game plan is to pile out on Duchies, Ruins, and Curses, then even a 5-3 Duchy split in favor of the Cultist-BM player will not overcome taking all 10 Curses. Heck, even a 6-2 Duchy split just barely puts the Cultist-BM player at a VP advantage.



On another note: played another Dark Ages game today with the WM finalists from Austria and Finland, and Procession makes for sick combos with some of the DA cards. Procession-Fortress gives you +4 actions, +2 cards, a free $5 action, and returns Fortress to your hand (so you can, say, play Procession-Fortress again). Procession-Cultist is great when there are $6 actions: it draws 7 cards and deals out 2 Ruins (though hard to match up, this is great for getting rid of your Cultists after the Ruins are gone).

I'd almost hazard to say that Procession-Fortress is a power combo in any kingdom that has good engine parts at $5; you can just keep on gaining those cards at virtually no penalty, and it gets easier and easier to match them up as you progress in the game.

Knights are swingy and very much a potential liability in a game with cards that have on-trash benefits. Hit Fortress? Free actions for opponent. Hit Hunting Grounds? 3 VP for opponent. Hit Cultist? Opponent starts turn with 8 cards. Opponent has a Market Square in hand? You might trash their Silver; they gain a Gold instead.

(Though I did get the fortune to buy Sir Vander, Procession'd him immediately for a Gold and a Hunting Grounds. Sir Vander is pretty cool.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 10:58:03 pm by dondon151 »
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Insomniac

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2012, 01:33:23 am »
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The reason I think you need to alternate I'd because you can gain cultists AND because you absolutely have to win the duchy war to make up for the fact your getting -10vp
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2012, 02:02:30 am »
+1

Junk Dealer: Strong and solid; the Dark Ages equivalent of Lab.

It doesn't remind me of Lab at all. It even leaves you with a 4 card hand after playing it instead of the 6 card hand Lab gives you.

Unless the card you trash lets you draw cards when you trash it...
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2012, 07:07:18 am »
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The reason I think you need to alternate I'd because you can gain cultists AND because you absolutely have to win the duchy war to make up for the fact your getting -10vp

No offense, but what you are saying really doesn't make much sense at all... ;)
Maybe you need to start to go for Duchies early, but that does not at all mean you should ever plan to buy a Cultist after you started going for Duchies (as long as there are still Duchies left).

I thought this would be obvious, but maybe you want to reread this sentence (which you may have missed because I didn't edit it in until some minutes after first posting, I put the important part in bold here):

If you instead buy Cultist after a Duchy, it would have been better to do it the other way round (unless Duchies are gone), because that might have given you an opportunity to use your additional Cultist instead of having a dead Duchy in your deck.

In any case, as dondon has already pointed out, it is very unlikely that a Cultist-only player will beat a Witch player just with Duchies anyway - the -10 VP from Curses are just too much for that.
The Cultist player will need at least one Province (more than the Witch player) to have a chance.
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rinkworks

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2012, 08:18:44 am »
+1

The reason I think you need to alternate I'd because you can gain cultists AND because you absolutely have to win the duchy war to make up for the fact your getting -10vp

Yeah, this doesn't make any sense.  Let me try to say what Varsinor is saying about this in different terms.

Let's say that over the course of a game using your algorithm, the following Cultist/Duchy purchases take place:

Cultist - Duchy - Cultist - Duchy - Cultist - Duchy - Cultist - Duchy - Cultist - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy

Then the game ends, and you have, hey look, 7 Duchies!  That's awesome.  21 points for you.  However, there is a price to pay for those Duchies beyond the money you spend on picking them up, and that is that the earlier Duchies clogged up your deck and appeared as dead cards in your hand instead of Cultists, which could have been used to further slow down your opponent.

Let's replay that game, then, keeping the same purchases but reordering them thusly:

Cultist - Cultist - Cultist - Cultist - Cultist - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy - Duchy

There you go.  7 Duchies for the same 21 points.  Only this time, with the Cultists entering your deck earlier, you got to play them more often, junking up your opponent's deck quicker and more, and the Duchies didn't slow you down as much, because they only started coming in at the end.

The hard part is figuring out when to stop buying Cultists and start buying Duchies.  But a good player WILL know that, and will beat someone hedging his bets by alternating every time.

This is a fundamental Dominion principle here, applicable in essentially every game.  It's why Duchy/Estate openings aren't very good.
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hamcannon

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2012, 10:40:03 pm »
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Quote
Rebuild: This is a powerful point source. I actually gained Estate with Hermit just so I could leverage it! It'll be especially good in non-Shelter games where the Estates make an attractive target. In most cases you'll name Province or Colony, whatever you don't want to hit.

I think I can completely describe when you want to name what.

If piles aren't close to running out, name the lowest costed VP card you have. Estate->Duchy is 2 points, but Duchy->Province is 3. Also it's more VPs that your opponent can't get, and given that you're running a non-draw non-money card, your opponent is going to be better at buying late VPs.

If provinces are close to being out and you're ahead, name the most common card that can't grab province. This is usually estate. Even if you hit a province with Rebuild, you can just trash it for another province, which means a dead province pile sooner. Same logic holds for Colonies in a Colony game.

Alternate VP cards can be tricky, since their price and how much they are worth aren't always the same sort of thing. With Duke out, you probably ought to just buy enough duchies and trash them for provinces so that your opponent can't duke/duchy. If there's only one alternate VP, you probably want to name it and trash lower costed cards into it. Gardens or Silk Road for massive VPs is one option. Harems or Nobles lose you a VP but make your deck not suck.
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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2012, 12:46:48 am »
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Man, that rebuild card seems like it will be crazy in the right kingdom.  If you have an engine that can draw your whole deck with extra +buy (e.g. worker's village/smithy), you can just pick up a few rebuilds and buy estates.  If you have 3 rebuilds, assuming you can still draw the deck, that's 3 estate->duchy or duchy-> province upgrades every turn..  This would probably also be awesome in a lab deck as long as you can find a cantrip +buy.  Maybe 2 squires? 

Alternatively, you could just pick up a couple hunting grounds for your engine, trash one of them, and take the estates instead of the duchy!
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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2012, 12:55:42 am »
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Man, that rebuild card seems like it will be crazy in the right kingdom.  If you have an engine that can draw your whole deck with extra +buy (e.g. worker's village/smithy), you can just pick up a few rebuilds and buy estates.  If you have 3 rebuilds, assuming you can still draw the deck, that's 3 estate->duchy or duchy-> province upgrades every turn..  This would probably also be awesome in a lab deck as long as you can find a cantrip +buy.  Maybe 2 squires? 

Alternatively, you could just pick up a couple hunting grounds for your engine, trash one of them, and take the estates instead of the duchy!

Except you cant rebuild cards in your hand. You'd need a way to discard the green after you draw your deck.
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Rhombus

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Re: Dark Ages initial report
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2012, 01:04:50 am »
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A brief update on my experience with Dark Ages:

Rats - still can't figure them out (had many opportunities, but haven't bought one).  Maybe they can help protect against cards like knights?
Knights - can be useful.  Attack is very good against trimmed decks.
Poor House - played a money-less deck and rocked the game (and was super fun).  Poor House is a power house but definitely board dependent.
Wandering Minstrel - absolutely awesome.  A village with 3-card cartographer effect for $4, just wow.
Squire - great card, good for +buys, +actions, and even silvers in the beginning depending on your deck goals.
Hermit - awesome defence against cursing attacks and looters; Madman is amazing.  Tactician is my favorite card... I may just love Madman more.
Altar - situational.  Doesn't feel like a powerhouse, but might be strong on some boards.

Necropolis - despite what others say, I still think it helps enable engines.  The shelters in general are pretty awesome to play with.
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