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[Davio]

So how does Counterfeit interact with Horn of Plenty when gaining a Victory card?

HoP wants to trash itself due to gaining a VP card.
But Counterfeit just wants to play it again and only then trash it.

If we look at TR+Feast, TR plays the card twice even though you can only trash it once, so it gets two $5 cards.
TR+Mining Village gets $2 one time when you trash it, but +2 Actions, +1 Card twice.

Can we assume that this is the same as Feast and that it's some super sneaky way to get even more Provinces with it?

[Grujah]

Pretty sure you can get 2 provinces.

[michaeljb]

I'm confident that you can get two Provinces with it, as long as you still have 8 cards in play the second time it's played--remember at that point Horn of Plenty will be in the trash. I'm assuming the "counting this" is there to remind you that it does count as in play when it's trying to gain a card, not that it even counts when it's not in play.

[jonts26]

I don't think HoP goes to the trash until after the second play. So that shouldn't be an issue.

[ftl]

It does go into the trash if you gain a Province with it.

[jonts26]

Oh, duh. Carry on.

[Davio]

Okay, how about Counterfeit + HoP + Mandarin?

Same rule?

Let's say we have the following Treasure cards in play: Stash, Hoard, Harem, Counterfeit -> HoP.
We use our first HoP play to gain a Mandarin.

Now all treasures go back to the deck, this includes Counterfeit and HoP, and we get to play an HoP which is no longer there a second time, so far so good, right?

There are no unique cards in play any more (everything has been put on the deck), not even HoP itself, so we have to gain a Copper or Curse, correct?

And afterwards we still have to trash the HoP, even if it's on the deck? Or is there some weird lose-track-rule which applies here?

[ftl]

Probably lost track. You can't fish it out from the deck. It got moved before it could be trashed. I think.

[blueblimp]

Yeah, I think you could actually do: Counterfeit on a HoP, first gain a Mandarin and then a Duchy; and you wouldn't need to trash the HoP at all (not because of the Duchy and not because of the Counterfeit). The HoP loses track of itself, so it can't trash itself, and Counterfeit loses track of the HoP too.

Here's why it needs to be this way. Imagine a King's Counterfeit that is the same as Counterfeit except it triple-plays a treasure. King's Counterfeit a HoP to gain: Mandarin, Inn, Duchy. The Mandarin on-gain effect puts the HoP on your deck, and then Inn's on-gain effect shuffles your deck. At this point, you literally have lost track of the HoP (you don't know where it is!), so how can you possibly trash it when gaining the Duchy?

[Davio]

But you couldn't gain a Duchy on the second play, because there are no cards in play!

[Kirian]

But you couldn't gain a Duchy on the second play, because there are no cards in play!

There could be actions instead of treasures.  So, something crazy:

2x Inn, Watchtower, Menagerie, Laboratory, Mandarin, Silver in play. In hand: 2x Counterfeit, 2x HOP
Play Counterfeit
--Play Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP: Gain Mandarin.  Silver, both Counterfeits, and the HOP return to the top of the deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP: Gain Inn, shuffle deck.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Play (virtual) Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP #2: Gain Mandarin.  HOP returns to top of deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP #2: Gain Duchy. Game cannot find HOP that would trash itself.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
  --Game cannot find Counterfeit #2 for Counterfeit #1 to trash.
Buy Province.  Actions are discarded.

It's a bit ridiculous, but yeah, I think that can really be the only ruling...

[Davio]

Since the lose track rule is finally explained in the Dark Ages rulebook, things like this will be easier to understand I think.

[bedlam]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but when Counterfeit is played and then Bank is played. The treasure that was played twice and then trashed does not count toward the Bank total because it is no longer in play right?

[ftl]

yes, that is correct.

[NoMoreFun]

But you couldn't gain a Duchy on the second play, because there are no cards in play!

There could be actions instead of treasures.  So, something crazy:

2x Inn, Watchtower, Menagerie, Laboratory, Mandarin, Silver in play. In hand: 2x Counterfeit, 2x HOP
Play Counterfeit
--Play Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP: Gain Mandarin.  Silver, both Counterfeits, and the HOP return to the top of the deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP: Gain Inn, shuffle deck.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Play (virtual) Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP #2: Gain Mandarin.  HOP returns to top of deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP #2: Gain Duchy. Game cannot find HOP that would trash itself.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
  --Game cannot find Counterfeit #2 for Counterfeit #1 to trash.
Buy Province.  Actions are discarded.

It's a bit ridiculous, but yeah, I think that can really be the only ruling...

Is the Inn necessary? Wouldn't Mandarin be enough for the Couterfeit to lose track of the other cards?

[Davio]

Apparently it is, but we weren't sure at the time, so Inn made it so the card was shuffled.

[enquerencia]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but when Counterfeit is played and then Bank is played. The treasure that was played twice and then trashed does not count toward the Bank total because it is no longer in play right?

I haven't looked very hard, but has anyone posted the rulebook for Dark Ages yet? I'm itching to read it, but can't get the game yet because my store hasn't gotten it.

[Tdog]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but when Counterfeit is played and then Bank is played. The treasure that was played twice and then trashed does not count toward the Bank total because it is no longer in play right?

I haven't looked very hard, but has anyone posted the rulebook for Dark Ages yet? I'm itching to read it, but can't get the game yet because my store hasn't gotten it.

http://riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_421_gameRules.pdf

[enquerencia]

Pretty sure I know the answer to this, but when Counterfeit is played and then Bank is played. The treasure that was played twice and then trashed does not count toward the Bank total because it is no longer in play right?

I haven't looked very hard, but has anyone posted the rulebook for Dark Ages yet? I'm itching to read it, but can't get the game yet because my store hasn't gotten it.

thanks Tdog!

http://riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_421_gameRules.pdf

[Jeebus]

2x Inn, Watchtower, Menagerie, Laboratory, Mandarin, Silver in play. In hand: 2x Counterfeit, 2x HOP
Play Counterfeit
--Play Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP: Gain Mandarin.  Silver, both Counterfeits, and the HOP return to the top of the deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP: Gain Inn, shuffle deck.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Play (virtual) Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP #2: Gain Mandarin.  HOP returns to top of deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP #2: Gain Duchy. Game cannot find HOP that would trash itself.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
  --Game cannot find Counterfeit #2 for Counterfeit #1 to trash.
Buy Province.  Actions are discarded.

It's a bit ridiculous, but yeah, I think that can really be the only ruling...

Seems right, except how could you afford a Province? Didn't you only produce $3? Maybe you meant to play the Silver first, but you're still $3 short.

[Kirian]

2x Inn, Watchtower, Menagerie, Laboratory, Mandarin, Silver in play. In hand: 2x Counterfeit, 2x HOP
Play Counterfeit
--Play Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP: Gain Mandarin.  Silver, both Counterfeits, and the HOP return to the top of the deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP: Gain Inn, shuffle deck.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
--Play (virtual) Counterfeit #2
  --Play HOP #2: Gain Mandarin.  HOP returns to top of deck.
  --Play (virtual) HOP #2: Gain Duchy. Game cannot find HOP that would trash itself.
    --Game cannot find HOP for Counterfeit #2 to trash.
  --Game cannot find Counterfeit #2 for Counterfeit #1 to trash.
Buy Province.  Actions are discarded.

It's a bit ridiculous, but yeah, I think that can really be the only ruling...

Seems right, except how could you afford a Province? Didn't you only produce $3? Maybe you meant to play the Silver first, but you're still $3 short.

Mandarin and Silver are already in play ($5 on the table)

[Jeebus]

Mandarin and Silver are already in play ($5 on the table)

D'oh! Forgot that the cards you listed were in play somehow.