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[jotheonah]

Honestly, I think these will be annoying as heck in a real game, especially a 4-player game.

Lets say my draw-my-deck engine desperately needs buys and Sir Martin is the only one on the board. He flips up on my turn when I buy Dame Josephine. Now I have to hope none of the other 3 people in the group hit $5 on their turns or completely replan my deck. 

Part of the inherent balance of Dominion was that no card was really OP, since everyone had access to it. With Knights, that's no longer true. (Technically the same could be said of Tournament, but getting the first prize was a matter of strategy, whereas getting a specific Knight is pure chance.)

They look awesome, but I can't help but think they're actually going to be a source of great frustration.

[blueblimp]

This was my first thought, but I think it won't be too bad. Knight games will resemble Swindler games, because the attack is so crazy. So it'll be difficult to formulate a coherent strategy no matter which knight you get.

[Grujah]

I think of bonuses as "little extra", not as "I buy knights for this". Esp as your knights will die and that extra stuff will be lost.

You buy knights for their attack.

[jonts26]

This was my first thought, but I think it won't be too bad. Knight games will resemble Swindler games

I think you contradicted yourself.

[blueblimp]

This was my first thought, but I think it won't be too bad. Knight games will resemble Swindler games

I think you contradicted yourself.

Well, yeah. I should say it won't be any worse than Swindler games.

[Davio]

I'm not too bothered by them.

You can always see the top one, so you can decide to wait if you wish, but then your opponent gets the chance to play one first.

[Voltaire]

Lets say my draw-my-deck engine desperately needs buys and Sir Martin is the only one on the board. He flips up on my turn when I buy Dame Josephine. Now I have to hope none of the other 3 people in the group hit $5 on their turns or completely replan my deck. 

I would say it's bad strategy to aim for one card in that situation. Just my take.

[jotheonah]

I guess my general point is that a card that I can get and you can't breaks one of the things I love the best about Dominion. But I also hear and appreciate the people saying that the bonuses are small and mundane enough that it won't really feel like that.

[Grujah]

That, but more importantly, if you are building a strategy over a single Knight, you are making a big mistake. It is not-likely to be gettable and is very likely that he will die when you play it / opponent plays it.

Joth, you also had this same thing with BM before. I can get Curser and you cannot.

[jotheonah]

I know I was not alone in hating that aspect of Black Market when it came to certain power cards.

[Davio]

I guess my general point is that a card that I can get and you can't breaks one of the things I love the best about Dominion. But I also hear and appreciate the people saying that the bonuses are small and mundane enough that it won't really feel like that.

Well, initially you might think: "We share the same cards, there must be no luck in this game!"

But then you play a game with Familiar and 2P on turn 5 vs. your opponent's 3P on turn 3 and remember that there is still a lot of luck in Dominion. I don't think the knights add significant more randomness and luck than what's already inherent to the game.

[timchen]

I think this is a reasonable concern. So knight is like an improved saboteur. One buys it for its main functionality.

How does the different extra bonus contribute to the game? It does add flavor, diversity, and variance. Is it enough to compensate the extra swinginess to the game?

From a serious, tournament-minded perspective I don't think so. May as well make it all the same with say, +2. But from a casual game perspective I can see its value.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't think getting any one Knight is game breaking as winning the Tournament race and getting Followers on a non-cursing board. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure of the power level of Knights in general.

[rinkworks]

Tournament and Black Market are definitely greater offenders in this regard.  Getting the Knight with the critical bonus on some particular board (probably the trasher and the +Buys one stand the best chance of being significant) is way less swingy than lucking into Followers or whatever goodies Black Market might give you.

I'm stoked, myself.  Black Market is one of my favorite cards precisely BECAUSE of the variance, though I certainly wouldn't want every Dominion game to be as luck-dependent.  But that's what I like about Dominion -- every game plays a little differently.

[Young Nick]

Yeah, I've talked about this at great length before on f.DS. First came Black Market, then Tournament. In the previews, we saw Looters who give some people Ruined A and others Ruined B. Now we get knights.

It is definitely one of my least favorite aspects of Dominion. Obviously, I still love Dominion, but would rather that all had equal access to cards. Not a deal-breaker for me, or anything close to it, but I guess we all have things about Dominion that we dislike more than others.

The availability aspect of all of the cards is what made me fall in love with the game, at first, too.

Maybe later I will find some of my previous comments about this type of stuff and post 'em here.

[Hockey Mask]

I love the idea of Knights but my first thought was that it would have made a good promo.

[werothegreat]

Knight is not an improved Saboteur.  It does things differently.  Saboteur hunts through the deck - it is not confined to the first two cards, and has no upper price limit.  Because of this, the defending player is allowed to take a crappier consolation prize.  Knights offer no such prize.  You may as well say that Noble Brigand is better than Thief.  Sure, he gives +$1 and gives out Coppers, but on boards with kingdom Treasures, you'll want the Thief.  Thief is actually rather fun in games with multiple kingdom Treasures.  If your goal is to destroy engine cards or Duchies, pick up a Knight.  If your goal is to knock out Provinces and Colonies (potentially to scoop them up with Graverobber), pick up a Saboteur (or rather, lots of Saboteurs, because one Saboteur ain't gonna do shit).

This goes over to the thread about Rogue v. Knight.  Knight is primarily an Attack.  Rogue is primarily a trash-gainer, that has a secondary Attack to ensure there's stuff in the trash to gain, much like Graverobber's ActionExpand.  Rogue is for stealing, Knight is for destroying.

[ftl]

Graverobber can't pick up Provinces and Colonies, it also only works on cost 3-6 cards, right?

[Coone]

I think that in a 2 player game, a knight won't really change the game more than saboteur has.  With its trash but don't replace strategy and its extra effect, it may be more viable than the saboteur, but without the right engine it's probably not going to gain game-winning momentum.

In a 3 to 4 player game I think it will be very annoying, but in all the ways I expect multiplayer games to be annoying anyways.  I personally look forward to when both knights and vineyard plus pawn or herbalist is on the board so I can play a low money game while other people slow themselves down by the knight (and yes, I'm in the imaginary world where no one else sees this potential and copies my strategy)

[ftl]

You will be sad when the knights keep eating your potions, though.

[Coone]

You will be sad when the knights keep eating your potions, though.

Oh snap! XD  Though herbalists do offer some protection from that.

[dondon151]

I've noticed that Spoils work fairly well in the presence of Knights. Spoils-gainers are more vulnerable, though.

[Loschmidt]

They look awesome, but I can't help but think they're actually going to be a source of great frustration.

Meh, probably. But they don't come up often, and if you want a serious Dominion game where you can show off your skills shuffle in a different card.

I think Knight games (especially multiplayer games) will be a bit swingy but FREAKIN AWESOME! Deck building makes you love your own unique snowflake of a deck and Knights give it the chance to literally have something the other players dont. I also love the challenge of figuring out how to use my random edge to my advantage. Like making the most of ruins except more awesome.

[Whitecrow]

I'm not certain unique knights are good idea.
Promptly there will be popular ones and unpopular ones.
1) Let's say sir discard or someone nice is on top: First player has much better chance to buy him, strengthen 1p advantage more.
2) Got unpopular one on top, the pile is dead. Everybody will think twice before buying a knight when it's bad one and the next one might be a better knight.

Trashing attack alone is not great either. It looks like nerfed saboteur to me as if saboteur were a power card. (of course it rules in MP...)

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think the differences in the extra bonuses of the various knights is not that big of a rage-inducing luck factor compared to what the actual attack hits.