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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 02:12:34 am »
+6

I'm back from my trip. The tournament was a huge disaster for me and I'm very disappointed with it. Not so much in the last game which someone commented on, but some of the other ones. Going into the last game manzi had 21 points to my 20 (5/3/1 scoring), so I knew I had to get more points than him. I knew we'd both be playing the last round, so I hoped we'd end up on the same table which would mean I just needed to beat him in that game to win the tournament. Instead he got paired with the two weakest players in the tournament, and I knew I had to play for a win; him finishing third against that opposition seemed impossible, and second place was a huge stretch too. I could have ended our game in second place a few turns before we were done, but felt like I had to go for the miracle and got Duchy+Estate instead of buying the last Province. Axiom bought the last Province after a couple turns of Duchy buying, and I wasn't particularly close to winning and got third. In the end, manzi predictably won his game, so even winning the last game wouldn't have helped. I'm kinda happy with not winning the last one heh, as the way(s) I lost points earlier in the tournament might have left me on permanent life tilt for months.

Overall, the level of play was pretty much in line with what I expected; lots of level 20-30 strength players (no Coppersmith/Great Hall openings like what I heard about from last year's Worlds), and one very strong player (predictably the japanese guy). manzi was very nice and polite, but we couldn't talk much due to the language barrier. He was certainly a well deserving champion, though I must say I felt very disappointed to not win after he got 3rd place in the very first round.

It was nice meeting you guys.

Edit: After reading the other posts more carefully, I should clarify that dondon and loppo are wrong to say I lost because of bad luck in the last game; I would have finished second in the tournament even if I had won the last game, as it turned out, as manzi also won his last game.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:35:28 am by Fabian »
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Lekkit

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 03:21:09 am »
+1

So there were no finals? That's a pity. Anyway, dude, you finished second in the world. That's not really a small feat. I'll buy you a kebab for it. ;) Also will you be attending the IRL league on tuesday?
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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 04:14:58 am »
0

Hey I'll take a kebab! I put on a lot of weight during my week in the US, but I think I can squeeze a kebab in there, I did miss it when I was gone :)

No finals, no. I agree it would have been greatly preferred, but from what I could tell Jay is strongly opposed to a) 2-player Dominion in tournaments or b) finals or c) both. Playing a best of 5 or whatever against manzi for the world title would have been pretty cool, I'll admit.

I'm guessing I'll be there tuesday. My interest in Dominion is at an all-time low with Dark Ages approaching and no way to play, but it's not like I have anything better to do on tuesday evenings.
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dondon151

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 06:29:03 am »
0

Edit: After reading the other posts more carefully, I should clarify that dondon and loppo are wrong to say I lost because of bad luck in the last game; I would have finished second in the tournament even if I had won the last game, as it turned out, as manzi also won his last game.

No, well, that's not what I meant. Bad choice of words on my part. You needed 2 things to happen to oust manzi from 1st; one of them was some decent luck to overcome your seating position in your last match, and the other was manzi to lose to either of the weakest players in the tournament. And we can say that the loss was due to one or the other, but - not to be pedantic here - I just want to clarify that I knew what was going on and that it was a bad choice of words on my part.
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() | (_) ^/

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 09:29:54 am »
0

.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 09:52:02 am by () | (_) ^/ »
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theory

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2012, 10:09:56 am »
+2

Too bad Fabian.  At least you lost to a worthy opponent, right?

Hope you enjoyed your time in the US at least.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2012, 11:16:10 am »
+4

That's the same Manzi who came second in the Dominion Strategy Tournament right?

Yeah I guess he's alright ;)
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rrenaud

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2012, 11:17:30 am »
+1

It's too bad there is a language barrier between him (and presumably his friends) and us :(.  We need better technology!
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loppo

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The sets are in
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2012, 11:49:30 am »
+3

I received the e-mail from Jay. I'll copy&paste ist andi won't coomeent much right now, since i have a huge jetlag since i just returned from indy a couple of hours ago, and try to keep me awake for 3 more hours to shift back to CET.

without further ado:

Hello,

Thanks again for participating the the tournament. I hope you have all arrived home safely.
I am happy to have met you all and enjoyed your spirit of fair play, competition, and friendship.

Here are the sets we used for the event. Thanks, again!

INTRIGUE / DOMINION
 
- Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia
- Masquerade, Shanty Town, Coppersmith, Ironworks, Torturer, Tribute, Upgrade, Nobles, Throne Room, Militia
 
SEASIDE / DOMINION
 
- Wharf, Outpost, Bazaar, Smugglers, Pearl Diver, Gardens, Bureaucrat, Throne Room, Moneylender, Remodel
- Salvager, Warehouse, Cutpurse, Native Village, Treasury, Moneylender, Mine, Remodel, Workshop, Laboratory
- Ghost Ship, Merchant Ship, Native Village, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Sea Hag, Smugglers, Treasury, Warehouse
 
ALCHEMY / DOMINION
 
- Apprentice, Vineyard, University, Philosopher's Stone, Golem, Chancellor, Festival, Moat, Witch, Woodcutter
- Herbalist, Transmute, Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Cellar, Chancellor, Festival, Militia, Smithy
 
PROSPERITY / DOMINION
 
- City, Trade Route, Bishop, Vault, Forge, Council Room, Cellar, Library, Throne Room, Chancellor
- Bishop, Goons, Monument, Peddler, Grand Market, Gardens, Witch, Chapel, Village, Remodel
- Bank, Expand, Forge, King's Court, Vault, Bridge, Coppersmith, Swindler, Tribute, Wishing Well
 
CORNUCOPIA / DOMINION
 
- Harvest, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Party, Menagerie, Tournament, Cellar, Festival, Militia, Moneylender, Smithy
- Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Jester, Young Witch [*Cellar], Feast, Laboratory, Market, Remodel, Workshop
- Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Hunting Party, Remake, Tournament,  Conspirator, Duke, Great Hall, Harem, Pawn
 
HINTERLANDS / DOMINION
 
- Scheme, Stables, Border Village, Cache, Festival, Mine, Smithy, Moneylender, Remodel, Cellar
- Crossroads, Farmland, Fool’s Gold, Oracle, Spice Marchant, Adventurer, Chancellor, Festival, Laboratory, Remodel
- Conspirator, Duke, Harem, Masquerade, Upgrade, Duchess, Haggler, Inn, Noble Brigand, Scheme

Jay Tummelson
Rio Grande Games
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:50:52 am by loppo »
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dondon151

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2012, 05:27:17 pm »
0

Game 1: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia
Turn order is Adam (the Brazil sit-in), dondon, manzi

Adam opens something like Bureaucrat/Silver, going for a BM strategy. I open Steward/Militia; manzi opens Steward/Steward. Adam gets at least a Courtyard and a Council Room at some point, manzi overtrashes and starts buying Provinces when his deck isn't ready to consistently hit $8, and I build an engine to hit $16 and double-Province. Unfortunately my Steward falls to turn 5, and deck acceleration is slow as a result. Eventually my engine gets firing and I start getting Province/Duchy or Duchy/Duchy to catch up, playing my Militia every turn, but I didn't know exactly how many points Adam had going into my last turn. I decide to gamble and double-Province when I get the chance, but end up losing this one, 42 (Adam) - 39 (dondon) - 25 (manzi).

Game 2: Herbalist, Transmute, Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Cellar, Chancellor, Festival, Militia, Smithy
Turn order is loppo, Fabian, dondon

loppo opens 5/2 and gets... well, I don't quite remember what he gets. Fabian gets Potion/Silver on 4/3. I get Potion/Herbalist on 4/3, hoping to get 2 Apothecaries before the reshuffle to increase my chances at getting Golem. The dominant strategy here is obviously Golems hitting Festivals and Smithies, with a Militia thrown in and a couple of Alchemists for consistency. I had some rotten luck all game but made 3 mistakes: I should have opened Potion/Silver (Herbalist didn't collide with Potion for me and kept getting hit by my Golems), I bought Cellar on an early $2 turn when I didn't have an engine running and both Fabian and loppo had Militias, and I played Golem when there was only a Smithy left in my deck, which triggered a reshuffle of a bunch of crap. I lose, 55 (Fabian) - 26 (loppo) - 16 (dondon).

Game 3: Bishop, Goons, Monument, Peddler, Grand Market, Gardens, Witch, Chapel, Village, Remodel Council Room, Cellar, Library, Throne Room, Chancellor
Turn order is dondon, Pepe, Mikko

(I think Jay got these sets mixed up; this is definitely what I played with this round)

Goons game. Pepe and Mikko didn't have much experience with Goons; I closed out on a triple-Goons turn (should have been quad-Goons but I forgot I had a 4th one in my hand) with 14 buys, emptying out Throne Room, Goons, and Peddlers. I win, 68 (dondon) - 23 (Mikko) - 16 (Pepe).

Game 4: Bank, Expand, Forge, King's Court, Vault, Bridge, Coppersmith, Swindler, Tribute, Wishing Well
Turn order is Pepe, Fabian, dondon

I kind of ignored Pepe here, since Fabian was the strong player. Fabian opens Vault/nothing on 5/2 while I have to settle for Swindler/Swindler on 4/3. I honestly thought that the game was lost here as a matter of opening luck. I try to go for something more swingy here, getting Vault on $5, a Forge on $7, then eventually 2 Bridges and something like 4 King's Courts. I draw a hand of KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge, which lets me end the game with 3 Provinces and 4 Duchies, tying Fabian. Fabian looked really pissed that he didn't outright win, but I had something like, 4 KCs and 4 Vaults in my deck, and drawing KC-KC-Vault would have very likely won the game for me outright. I'm completely certain that I picked the correct strategy for this kingdom on a 4/3 vs. 5/2 in a weaker position. Fabian and I tie, 31 (Fabian) - 31 (dondon) - 24 (Pepe).

Game 5: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Jester, Young Witch [*Cellar], Feast, Laboratory, Market, Remodel, Workshop
Turn order is Axiom, dondon, manzi

manzi opens 5/2 and gets Jester/Cellar. Axiom and I open 4/3; he opens YW/Cellar and I open HT/Cellar, hoping to get an early $5 for my own Jester. Well, HT falls to turn 5, manzi's Jester gets him lots of good stuff, including a Young Witch, a Gold, and many Cellars, and I just never have a Cellar in hand to defend against YW plays. I end up eating 12 of the Curses, and though I do hit 15 unique cards for 6 VP Fairgrounds, I only got 2 Fairgrounds. Sigh. 28 (manzi) - 18 (Axiom) - 13 (dondon).

Game 6: Crossroads, Farmland, Fool’s Gold, Oracle, Spice Marchant, Adventurer, Chancellor, Festival, Laboratory, Remodel
Turn order is dondon, Mikko, loppo

Nothing going on in this kingdom. First position lets me "win" the FG split, we each get an Adventurer to connect our FGs, and that's basically it... 32 (dondon) - 25 (Mikko) - 24 (loppo).
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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2012, 06:40:19 pm »
0

KC/KC/Vault lets you see 11 card deep in your ~35 card deck with exactly 2 Bridge in it. I'll have to pretty strongly disagree that it would "likely win you the game", especially so considering at that point you'd have needed to Swindle Duchy into something or Copper into Curse to win, too, anyway. Another turn and a comeback would have been practically impossible, 7 buys was the maximum your deck could get.
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dondon151

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2012, 07:20:21 pm »
0

KC/KC/Vault lets you see 11 card deep in your ~35 card deck with exactly 2 Bridge in it. I'll have to pretty strongly disagree that it would "likely win you the game", especially so considering at that point you'd have needed to Swindle Duchy into something or Copper into Curse to win, too, anyway. Another turn and a comeback would have been practically impossible, 7 buys was the maximum your deck could get.

No way did I have a 35 card deck. Without having made any extra purchases beforehand (since I did not play Bridge before that point, choosing to play Vault every time instead), I could not have possibly had more than 30 cards, because we did not even play 20 turns until that point. If I'm not mistaken, you had 4 Provinces and 2 Duchies at that point (or 5 Provinces and 0 Duchies), which is maybe ~turn 16 for a Vault/nothing opening. That means I had ~26 cards in my deck maximum. I had also played Forge twice, forfeiting 2 of my buys and cutting down some junk, which means that I had a conservative estimate of ~24 cards.

If I had played KC-KC-Vault, all I needed to do was to draw another Vault, and I would end up drawing basically my entire deck. I had 3 or 4 KCs and 3 or 4 Vaults, which means that all I had to do was KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Forge to gain 3 Duchies from Forge and buy 3x Duchy, 4x Province for a win.

I mean, I can understand being miffed because someone just spontaneously draws and connects KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge, but 1) my chances were not that bad at getting a KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge (I needed either that or KC-KC-Vault to find the other KC's and Bridges) and 2) you had the 5/2 opening and I had no chance at winning that match unless I turned your Vault into a Duchy. I didn't, so here we are.

EDIT: replacing Forge with Swindler would let me change all of your <$6 cards into Curses, so that works as well, unless I hit Provinces.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 07:28:46 pm by dondon151 »
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Lekkit

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2012, 07:28:18 pm »
+2

And once again we are reminded that luck does play a part in this game.
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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2012, 07:55:46 pm »
0

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :)
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dondon151

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2012, 08:03:07 pm »
0

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :)

Yup. But I can definitely agree with you that I was a lot more likely to not tie/win than to tie/win.

EDIT: btw, Fabian, this kingdom that you played against manzi and Mikko:
Conspirator, Duke, Harem, Masquerade, Upgrade, Duchess, Haggler, Inn, Noble Brigand, Scheme

Why didn't you guys go Duke? I see a nice Conspirator engine potential, but without +buys, Duke is really strong here...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 08:08:23 pm by dondon151 »
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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2012, 09:26:10 pm »
0

I heard you and/or other people saying that, but I guess I don't see it. Where's the Duke support? Why is it strong here? It's going to be very hard to do anything enginey with Duke, as Duke requires more green cards in the mid/lategame than a Province engine would (and also needs to start greening earlier, since for the first ~15 turns of greening, a Province deck will outscore a Duke deck here), and anything BMesque, I don't really see working out.
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dondon151

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2012, 10:20:51 pm »
+3

Get Haggler on your first $5 (maybe second); gain Silver with Haggler on Duchy and Duke buys; gain Duchess on Duchy buys.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191514-606efedc.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191734-608898ae.html

6 Duchies + 3 Dukes beats 2 opponents getting a 6/6 Province split (because the opponents will have used Upgrades to trash starting Estates). I get my 9th Duchy/Duke on turns 15 and 16 in the above logs. I highly doubt that a Scheme-Conspirator engine will be able to muster 6 Provinces in 15/16 turns with no +buy. (EDIT: it can, but it still loses by virtue of having trashed 3 Estates, and it will probably lose in a 3-player game if the 3rd player is weak and can't split Provinces.)

In the first log, I miss $5 3 times after turn 6; in the second log, I miss $5 2 times after turn 6.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 10:37:39 pm by dondon151 »
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Fabian

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2012, 10:48:19 pm »
0

I'm not sure solitaire game logs based on a BMesque approach are very useful for drawing conclusions of what would happen against two engine opponents who have access to Noble Brigand.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2012, 02:21:58 am »
0

I'm not sure solitaire game logs based on a BMesque approach are very useful for drawing conclusions of what would happen against two engine opponents who have access to Noble Brigand.
Who would also be able to upgrade silvers to conspirators, just incase you think that silvers might hurt them. 
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DG

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2012, 07:41:22 pm »
0

Excellent kingdoms from Donald X. again. I think these are specifically good 3/4 player kingdoms and are not as balanced for two player games. They might even include a few traps for someone who plays exclusively two player, even starting in the first kingdom: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia.
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ednever

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Re: Coverage
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2012, 10:06:24 pm »
+1

Get Haggler on your first $5 (maybe second); gain Silver with Haggler on Duchy and Duke buys; gain Duchess on Duchy buys.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191514-606efedc.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191734-608898ae.html

6 Duchies + 3 Dukes beats 2 opponents getting a 6/6 Province split (because the opponents will have used Upgrades to trash starting Estates). I get my 9th Duchy/Duke on turns 15 and 16 in the above logs. I highly doubt that a Scheme-Conspirator engine will be able to muster 6 Provinces in 15/16 turns with no +buy. (EDIT: it can, but it still loses by virtue of having trashed 3 Estates, and it will probably lose in a 3-player game if the 3rd player is weak and can't split Provinces.)

In the first log, I miss $5 3 times after turn 6; in the second log, I miss $5 2 times after turn 6.

Agree with Dondon here. Duchess by itself is often enough to facilitate a duke strategy. Throw in haggler and potentially an open with masc to clean out some estates and I think it becomes dominant.

Wild card is I'm a lot less sure how well it works with 3players.

If 2 go duke, then you split the duchies which is bad. And the province player can spend a little more time building for the provinces (and is in a lot better shape to get more provinces when the Ds are empty.

If you go duke by yourself, the other two might be able to end the province pile before youve got your dukes where you need them to be.

A lot more complicated than 2p, that's for sure.

Ed
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