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Author Topic: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games  (Read 4756 times)

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b-durk

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Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« on: July 31, 2011, 06:34:02 pm »
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Hello Everyone,

I apologize in advance if this is not the right place to post this.

Either way a new article went up on Next Level Card Games. It covers the most powerful Action cards when playing with Intrigue only. The article helps prepare players for the first two rounds of play in the Dominion Tournament at the World Boardgaming Championships.

You can check it out here: http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/07/dominion-strategy-world-board-gaming.html
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2011, 09:27:06 am »
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I'm totally unimpressed by that article. Steward trashes better than masq? Shanty town at 7? No thanks.

Davio

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 09:42:40 am »
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Imho a Top 10 like that is pretty useless.
This may confuse readers and let them think they should always buy a certain card, just because it has a top 10 ranking.

I think it's more useful to talk about each card and mention scenario's for which they are pretty good and scenario's for which they suck.

Bridge is for instance not on that list, but can be a key card (although you may need helpers from other sets).
Conspirator is not on that list, but can work wonders with Minion.
Harem is considered one of the best $6 cards and not on that list. Harem + Scout is a nice combo.
Nobles is somewhat of a mediocre $6, but again with Scout it can be good.
I like buying Mining Villages and trashing them aggressively to use them as one-shot Golds (if I draw a Copper with them, I basically get +$3)

These are just some examples.

Again, such a ranking may only lull your readers into a false sense of security (I can't go wrong with THIS card!), instead of teaching them the deeper strategies.

Donald and Co have designed the cards with great care and tried to make sure each and every one had some use at some point.
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rinkworks

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 10:08:47 am »
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Wow, who knew that Pawn helps "draw cards" and "provide actions."  Recognizing that an action card that provides +1 Card, +1 Action is (usually) as good as not having the card at all is Dominion 101.  The reason Pawn is good is because it can provide a coin and/or a buy when needed, without getting in the way when it isn't.

I'm not even sure what the write-up for Swindler is trying to say.

But I'm confused, WW, when you question Steward being a better trasher than Masquerade.  Isn't it?  Steward trashes two cards outright.  Masquerade lets you effectively trash two, but you get one back, and more often than not it's going to be a junk card too.  Or are you taking into account everything these cards can do and not just their "pure" trashing ability?


Edit:  Bold text was mistakenly omitted from the original post.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 10:38:42 am by rinkworks »
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DStu

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 10:17:56 am »
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I also think such a list, especially with the goal of preparing for a tournament, should not be named and look for the "Top 10 Cards", but the "Top 10 important Cards" that list the cards that, given the right setup, can be the dominating card and the ones that are important in most setups. Without order but top-down from the list on the blog

Courtyard: BM-Courtyard is almost as fast as BM-Envoy, go for it.
Pawn: can give crucial +buys without disturbing the deck
Masquerade: no comment necessary I think.
Steward: is a really fast trasher, I think it's more reasonable to get a "Chapel-like" deck with it than with Masq. But Masq. has other advantages of course.
Swindler: nc
Bridge: nc
Conspirator: nc
Mining Village: nc
Duke: WW is the Duke-expert here, I don't really know how likely a Dukestrat will be reasonable on Intrigue. And I don't know the modus of the tournament, but in 3/4player even on non-optimal boards going for dukes might be possible as you prisoner-dilemma your opponents into who's stopping you. So maybe no-one does. On the other hand, they only need 6/4 provinces each to run the pile out. But at least on the list to be considered I think.
Minion: nc
Saboteur: just kidding
Torturer: nc
Harem: for big-moneyesque strategies.

Ok, that were 12. However...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 10:23:03 am »
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Wow, who knew that Pawn helps "draw cards" and "provide actions."  Recognizing that an action card that provides +1 Card, +1 Action is Dominion 101.  The reason Pawn is good is because it can provide a coin and/or a buy when needed, without getting in the way when it isn't.

I'm not even sure what the write-up for Swindler is trying to say.

But I'm confused, WW, when you question Steward being a better trasher than Masquerade.  Isn't it?  Steward trashes two cards outright.  Masquerade lets you effectively trash two, but you get one back, and more often than not it's going to be a junk card too.  Or are you taking into account everything these cards can do and not just their "pure" trashing ability?

But that would be like saying that Smithy is a better card-drawer than lab. You have to take other aspects of the card into account, and in almost every situation, masq is better. Masq is an elite 3.

Davio

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 10:26:20 am »
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But even Saboteur can be a good card when you want to disrupt your opponent's Minion-chain.

Reducing an opponent from 5 to 4 Minions can have a devastating effect.
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rinkworks

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 10:36:56 am »
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But that would be like saying that Smithy is a better card-drawer than lab. You have to take other aspects of the card into account, and in almost every situation, masq is better. Masq is an elite 3.

I probably would say that a Smithy is a better card-drawer than a (single) Laboratory, even though Laboratory is clearly the better card overall.  And I get that Masquerade is usually a better card overall than Steward.  I was just making sure I understood exactly what your objection was.
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theory

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 10:58:49 am »
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This may confuse readers and let them think they should always buy a certain card, just because it has a top 10 ranking.
Shh, I'm going to WBC this year.  I hope all my opponents buy Stewards instead of Masquerades :)

I think the article is a good effort.  I disagree with several of the choices, but it's nice to see it written up.  (Besides, my own Five Best $3 Cards has some equally dubious choices ...)
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Davio

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 11:13:56 am »
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Good luck!

I am playing in a similar national tournament (Dutch championship) on September 4th this year.
The setup is somewhat the same, but the games are Base only the first 3 rounds with Intrigue for the Semi and Final.

I think I understand most of the strategies, but Workshopping Gardens still seems like slow death to me.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 11:46:09 am »
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I hate to pile on... but i'm not sure steward belongs on the top 10 list at all, let alone at position #1.

The big things I look for in an intrigue only set are:

#1 Minions and how to get the most of them
#1 Masquerade
#1 The ability to create a torturer chain
#2 Trading post
#3 Baron to early gold.

Cards that I generally ignore are:
Saboteur
Scout (unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY sure you know what you're doing)
Duke - this may be a card that I just don't understand, but i've had a really hard time pulling of a Duke strategy effectively.  I've generally had better luck going for provinces, and then if my opponent starts going for duchies, just matching him / her because my deck is so much better.  Unlike gardens, its alot harder to really make a run at these.
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DStu

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 11:49:16 am »
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I think the article is a good effort.  I disagree with several of the choices, but it's nice to see it written up.  (Besides, my own Five Best $3 Cards has some equally dubious choices ...)
I can't see how having Steward instead of Masquerade on your Top$3 is comparable to what's discussed here...
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timchen

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 11:12:01 pm »
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Funny, I actually do think there are quite some situations that steward does trash better. Masquerade is generally better because it draws, not because it trashes. Sometimes that one extra card trash can make a big difference.

If anyone is interested, this game
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110116-133412-fc654593.html
gives me such impression. Evidently we have not yet heard about the KC-Goons-Masq lock down back then. I even chatted to geronimoo (while he is still new) how I think steward is a better card.

Maybe I am just horribly wrong. LOL.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 11:25:33 pm by timchen »
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guided

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 12:16:00 am »
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Lookout/Steward is still my #1 favorite opening 8)
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Kirian

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 08:49:22 am »
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Lookout/Steward is still my #1 favorite opening 8)

Not as fun as Loan/Steward, by which I once got crushed, hard.  It may have been by you, in fact...
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DG

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2011, 09:32:13 am »
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I don't think there's any need for a masquerade vs steward debate. They both have their days. Knowing the advantages and drawbacks of the cards within the context of a kingdom is far more important. Admittedly, it's simpler in an internet article to just rank them. Perhaps Paris Hilton likes masquerades?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 09:43:07 am by DG »
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b-durk

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Re: Top Ten Intrigue Cards at Next Level Card Games
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2011, 04:06:25 pm »
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I think DG brings up a great point. The list really tries to show the more powerful cards and how they impact the Kingdom. Do not try and read it as a hard fast ranking of this card over that card. The article attempts to try and educate newer players who may go to WBC but do not play Dominion often enough to realize the potential of certain cards. I see how the ranking could confuse some players. Future articles may use a different format.

Unfortunately I do not check these forums often. Next time post your thoughts at the bottom of the actual article and your ideas could influence future posts. For example the latest Dominion article did not factor in any of the criticism here because we did not see it in time. If you comment direct on the article page the administrators and authors will receive a notification. You can even comment anonymously without signing up for anything.

You can find the latest article here: http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/08/dominion-strategy-world-board-gaming.html

It covers Seaside to help newer players with the later rounds of the event.
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