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Author Topic: Do we know when exactly it's going up?  (Read 114103 times)

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cactus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #250 on: August 18, 2012, 12:18:34 am »
+4

 "The other is actually brighter; it involves Goko folding completely, the licenses reverting to the manufacturers, a bunch of venture capitalists getting shafted, and going back to amateurs developing the online implementations again.

That last path might even involve RGG, Mayfair, and the like, waiting for someone to actually show them a working product, then licensing it.

Perhaps that last is actually the optimistic scenario, actually." Quote from Kirian.

+1

But, what a waste of time and effort and expectation and goodwill. And any way one tries to spin it - even in the best case scenarios - it will be the far distant future before the playing experience returns to anything like what we took for granted prior to isotropic being switched off. The actual experience of playing the game - the pleasure of playing the game - the reason so many people spend so much time reading about it, thinking about it and posting about it - the actual experience of playing the game is going to be significantly degraded now and for a long time into the future.

Clearly the reason so many people, myself included, are getting hot under the collar is that they really love the game. I think the game itself is beautiful, elegant and almost endlessly fascinating. I want the best for the game and I it to be implemented in the best possible way. I want to be able to go to my friends and say "look at this fantastic game I've been playing, come and play it with me".... and I can't see how I'm going to be able to do that in the foreseeable future. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:20:47 am by cactus »
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sffc

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #251 on: August 18, 2012, 12:44:06 am »
+1

To be fair, Goko Dominion is not really all that bad.  Sure it's somewhat buggy and its developers didn't build it with security in mind (which is unfortunate), but it does use bleeding-edge technologies like HTML5.  (I'm not sure what their server is running, but I suspect that it's something like Node.js with a MongoDB backend.)  The graphics and animation are far superior to anything we've seen thus far, making it more appealing to the casual Dominion player.  Isotropic has its place as a "gitrdone" interface for Dominion, but playing on Isotropic is a significantly different experience than playing with real cards.  I think Goko has done a wonderful job of making an electronic Dominion that closely resembles a face-to-face experience.  And remember that they did make the text logs for us hard-core Dominion players!

In terms of optimization, JavaScript as a language is a decade or so behind its more mature counterparts like Java and (Objective-)C that are used to write native phone apps.  As JavaScript engines get better, so will the performance of HTML5 games.
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Mecherath

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #252 on: August 18, 2012, 01:06:02 am »
0

I'm not really feeling the same level of rage myself.  To me it looks like they wanted to launch this week for GenCon / Dark Ages and they took a gamble.  One that did not pay off, since it seems the platform was more popular than they anticipated.  I suspect that a lot more than the 6,000 or so Isotropic users were trying to get on.  They probably should have done an open beta from the start and done a stress test.  Or "sharded" from the start with named rooms, so that you can play with your friends, but things aren't screwed.

I'm glad they went back to Beta, if only so I can stop trying every 30 minutes or so to sign on.  That's really all that bothered me about this delay.  I had not invested any money yet, so I don't feel like they owe me anything.  Other than the hour or so I spent failing at Captchas, this is not any different from my perspective than if the release got delayed a month.  If I'm super excited about a movie or a new novel, and then I find out it's delayed... even if there's no good reason, I don't immediately pull a 180 and swear off that director / author / whatever.

It sounds like this Beta is open, so they'll be able to ease people into it.  Maybe even a quiet transition into live, so as to reduce the launch day load.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #253 on: August 18, 2012, 01:08:34 am »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.
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cactus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #254 on: August 18, 2012, 02:37:17 am »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.

Yeah, I was assuming I was going to be buying it all no matter what right up until today....

monteslu

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #255 on: August 18, 2012, 09:58:56 am »
0

To be fair, Goko Dominion is not really all that bad.  Sure it's somewhat buggy and its developers didn't build it with security in mind (which is unfortunate), but it does use bleeding-edge technologies like HTML5.  (I'm not sure what their server is running, but I suspect that it's something like Node.js with a MongoDB backend.)  The graphics and animation are far superior to anything we've seen thus far, making it more appealing to the casual Dominion player.  Isotropic has its place as a "gitrdone" interface for Dominion, but playing on Isotropic is a significantly different experience than playing with real cards.  I think Goko has done a wonderful job of making an electronic Dominion that closely resembles a face-to-face experience.  And remember that they did make the text logs for us hard-core Dominion players!

In terms of optimization, JavaScript as a language is a decade or so behind its more mature counterparts like Java and (Objective-)C that are used to write native phone apps.  As JavaScript engines get better, so will the performance of HTML5 games.

Agree with most of what you said.  Javascript and Java are both 17 years old.  The JS implementations are in different states of maturity.  Chrome's V8 JsVM is amazing and is the foundation for NodeJS, while IE's JsVM is embarrassingly bad.  I've been coding in both for about 15 years and wouldn't say JS is decade behind Java in any way.

I was lucky enough to see this talk on V8 live: 
It covers some really impressive performance tuning you can do in Javascript.

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Tdog

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #256 on: August 18, 2012, 10:25:12 am »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.

Yeah, I was assuming I was going to be buying it all no matter what right up until today....

Why would you not now? It's back into beta so all of the issues will, hopefully, be fixed
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Jedit

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #257 on: August 18, 2012, 12:09:33 pm »
0

It's back into beta so all of the issues will, hopefully, be fixed

There will now be a short pause for hysterical laughter.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #258 on: August 18, 2012, 12:10:04 pm »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.

Yeah, I was assuming I was going to be buying it all no matter what right up until today....

Why would you not now? It's back into beta so all of the issues will, hopefully, be fixed

Notsureifserious.gif
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jonts26

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #259 on: August 18, 2012, 12:26:46 pm »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.

Yeah, I was assuming I was going to be buying it all no matter what right up until today....

Why would you not now? It's back into beta so all of the issues will, hopefully, be fixed

Notsureifserious.gif

Shouldn't that be a .jpg?
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cactus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #260 on: August 18, 2012, 12:31:39 pm »
0

I'm not personally upset or offended since I will almost certainly buy it no matter what.

My fear is that through a combination of Goko's bumbling and bad press, the online version will be unpopular so I won't be able to play as many games vs. other humans, or that the lack of popularity will also mean Goko won't spend any resources perfecting it.

Yeah, I was assuming I was going to be buying it all no matter what right up until today....

Why would you not now? It's back into beta so all of the issues will, hopefully, be fixed

Why would I not buy it?
1/ Because $85 is about double what I think a reasonable price is. I would probably still buy it if it was an absolutely top notch implementation (it seems pretty clear it is not). I might still buy this substandard implementation if it were half way reasonably priced (which IMO it is not).
2/ Also because the security concerns raised elsewhere on this website disincline me from having any financial interactions with the company.
3/ Also no off-line and no iOS implementation. What do you think about paying $85 for a game you can only play online. What if the company goes broke? You'd have no way to play the game you paid $85 for.
4/ But the biggest reason for me personally not to buy it is the stuff about micro transactions being included in the adventure mode. If that stuff is all correct as reported.... I really have a strong reaction against that sort of business practice.... 

« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:33:18 pm by cactus »
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jotheonah

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #261 on: August 18, 2012, 05:18:50 pm »
+9

Wait a minute, if $85 is double what you think a reasonable price is and you would buy it if it were "halfway reasonably priced" ... you should buy it, right?
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timchen

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #262 on: August 18, 2012, 05:28:12 pm »
+1

Hmm. Seems I missed the launch and it went back Beta. I guess that is a good thing?

But who did they hire to do the programming? A bunch of college grads who only took a course or two in programming?

I mean, isn't password security a standard thing nowadays? And this client and server workload division should also be something standard in online gaming.
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werothegreat

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #263 on: August 18, 2012, 05:36:35 pm »
+1

Wait a minute, if $85 is double what you think a reasonable price is and you would buy it if it were "halfway reasonably priced" ... you should buy it, right?

By my calculations, if you buy in the smallest batches of gokoins ($1 = 10 gokoins), making each set $6, that should be $78 overall, not including Guilds.  It'd be cheaper if you bought the gokoins in bulk.
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bozzball

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #264 on: August 18, 2012, 05:48:50 pm »
0

Wait a minute, if $85 is double what you think a reasonable price is and you would buy it if it were "halfway reasonably priced" ... you should buy it, right?

"Why, this is excellent" - twelfth night
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cactus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #265 on: August 18, 2012, 07:32:35 pm »
0

Wait a minute, if $85 is double what you think a reasonable price is and you would buy it if it were "halfway reasonably priced" ... you should buy it, right?

Ha! Good point. Looks like I just talked myself into the opposite position....

Jedit

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #266 on: August 19, 2012, 02:58:03 pm »
0

By my calculations, if you buy in the smallest batches of gokoins ($1 = 10 gokoins), making each set $6, that should be $78 overall, not including Guilds.  It'd be cheaper if you bought the gokoins in bulk.

How many purchases are required to get everything?
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bedlam

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #267 on: August 19, 2012, 04:13:15 pm »
0

its $75 if you buy a 580 ($50), a 230 ($20)and a 50 pack ($5), since you need 840 coins

Note: added bold items

It was calculated that there will be 14 card packs (including Guilds) at 60 coins per pack

So buying those bulk coin packs will get you enough coin for everything @$75

And you would have 20 coins left over for all those zaps!
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werothegreat

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #268 on: August 19, 2012, 06:20:43 pm »
+1

its $75 if you buy a 580 ($50), a 230 ($20)and a 50 pack ($5), since you need 840 coins

Note: added bold items

It was calculated that there will be 14 card packs (including Guilds) at 60 coins per pack

So buying those bulk coin packs will get you enough coin for everything @$75

And you would have 20 coins left over for all those zaps!

No there wouldn't.

Goko seems to have three currencies in place.

Gokoins - you buy these, and use them to acquire expansions

Dominion coins - you earn these through playing, and use them to acquire zaps/other things

Victory points - you earn these in the adventure mode, and use them to acquire promo cards
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enquerencia

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #269 on: August 20, 2012, 08:29:21 am »
0

Perhaps this is all happening to delay launch until after Iso goes down so we all get the jones and pay whatever we have in our bank accounts to play a product that is clearly not "beautifully executed." 

As angry as I am, I might still have my credit card in my hand when this thing finally goes live, and I kinda hate myself for that.
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cactus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #270 on: August 20, 2012, 08:58:52 am »
+1

its $75 if you buy a 580 ($50), a 230 ($20)and a 50 pack ($5), since you need 840 coins

Note: added bold items

It was calculated that there will be 14 card packs (including Guilds) at 60 coins per pack

So buying those bulk coin packs will get you enough coin for everything @$75

And you would have 20 coins left over for all those zaps!

No there wouldn't.

Goko seems to have three currencies in place.

Gokoins - you buy these, and use them to acquire expansions

Dominion coins - you earn these through playing, and use them to acquire zaps/other things

Victory points - you earn these in the adventure mode, and use them to acquire promo cards


Demented...! Not the lest bad thing about all of this is how infantile it seems. Gokoins? Have I landed back in the middle of grade 3...?

Nimmy

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #271 on: August 20, 2012, 11:52:12 am »
0

As far as I understand it the following are concerns:

1. [...]
3. the game server doesn't validate messages from the client - so you can do things like play bridges from the supply that you don't own - or just buy colonies without enough money for them.

Just to put things into perspective, here is a post from dougz from april 2012, proving that isotropic (even recently!) had also quite severe bugs (similar to 3. above):

Turns out that (until last night) the server didn't actually check to see if you had enough money to buy the card you asked to buy.  Normally it's not a problem because the interface only makes cards clickable if you can afford them, but if you hack the javascript, or insert a proxy that modifies the request on the way to the server (as bdhcompany did) it would happily sell you any card in the supply whether you had the money for it or not.  Whoops!


« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 11:57:45 am by Nimmy »
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DStu

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #272 on: August 20, 2012, 12:16:54 pm »
+1

Just to put things into perspective, here is a post from dougz from april 2012, proving that isotropic (even recently!) had also quite severe bugs (similar to 3. above):

I think for me it's that it all adds up.

This "don't-trust-the-client"-thing is, yeah, it can happen, but, especially if you target a large audience, you should have thought on this. But fix it, and it's ok.  But than it's not only that, one day later you read in the beta-forum about the JS-injection.  Ok, JS-injection maybe also can happen somewhere in a complex product. Should not, but probably can. But it was not because of something complex, where you send a malformed request and in some weird case you get an injection. It's in the CHAT. When you type in it. Hello?

So of course you can fix this by probably just call the JS-method that escapes the string and it is done.  But how can I believe that there was any policy concerning security? And what can me convice that there is one now? That they have fixed the obvious bugs told them? Probably it's that I read two days later that they send the passwords in plain text...

But at least, compared to isotropic, they only want my credit card number, and not the association of an email-adress that only exists for dominon-related purposes...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 12:26:23 pm by DStu »
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #273 on: August 20, 2012, 12:26:43 pm »
+2

Just to put things into perspective, here is a post from dougz from april 2012, proving that isotropic (even recently!) had also quite severe bugs (similar to 3. above):

I think for me it's that it all adds up.

This "don't-trust-the-client"-thing is, yeah, it can happen, but, especially if you target a large audience, you should have thought on this. But fix it, and it's ok.  But than it's not only that, one day later you read in the beta-forum about the JS-injection.  Ok, JS-injection maybe also can happen somewhere in a complex product. Should not, but probably can. But it was not because of something complex, where you send a malformed request and in some weird case you get an injection. It's in the CHAT. When you type in it. Hello?

So of course you can fix this by probably just call the JS-method that escapes the string and it is done.  But how can I believe that there was any policy concerning security? And what can me convice that there is one now? That they have fixed the obvious bugs told them? Probably it's that I read two days later that they send the passwords in plain text...

Yeah - this stuff happens.  Developers write buggy code.  Solo developers without dedicated QA teams working for free have a little leniency in my mind.

Teams of people who have been working for a year launching a large scale commercial product - have less.  Being willing to launch your product with a known security hole that is trivial to exploit is just irresponsible.  Embedding javascript in your chat doesn't exactly require throwing a proxy in between the client and the server - which is what I'm assuming blueblimp did for his don't trust the client attack.  And since you can redirect someone to ANY website - if your browser has any holes (and they all do right?  those pwn2own competitions always have zero day exploits released) then you've got some risk of your computer being compromised.

And that's just the truly dangerous attacks.  There's also the potential PR impact from a mainstream news outlet was redirected to lemonparty because a 15 year old (or a 33 year old who has the emotional maturity of a 15 year old) decided to copy / paste some crap from the internet. 

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polonkus

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Re: Do we know when exactly it's going up?
« Reply #274 on: August 20, 2012, 12:27:48 pm »
+2

As far as I understand it the following are concerns:

1. [...]
3. the game server doesn't validate messages from the client - so you can do things like play bridges from the supply that you don't own - or just buy colonies without enough money for them.

Just to put things into perspective, here is a post from dougz from april 2012, proving that isotropic (even recently!) had also quite severe bugs (similar to 3. above):

Turns out that (until last night) the server didn't actually check to see if you had enough money to buy the card you asked to buy.  Normally it's not a problem because the interface only makes cards clickable if you can afford them, but if you hack the javascript, or insert a proxy that modifies the request on the way to the server (as bdhcompany did) it would happily sell you any card in the supply whether you had the money for it or not.  Whoops!

Yeah but as I understand it dougz started iso as a private testing tool / hobby project, so he can be forgiven for trusting the client a bit more than is wise.
Funsockets on the other hand is purporting to create an entire ecosystem for online gaming, so you'd expect them to know the rules of Online Game Dev 101.
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