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[jsimantov]

Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

Hey, I just thought of something related to this, which has nothing to do with Band of Misfits...

What happens if you set aside a VP card on Haven, but then the game ends before your next turn? Is the set aside card still counted towards your score? Originally I thought obviously yes, but now I'm thinking maybe not, by a strict interpretation of what "set aside" means... (which is why Island specifically tells you to put itself and its set aside card back in your deck at the end of the game).

[engineer]

Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

Hey, I just thought of something related to this, which has nothing to do with Band of Misfits...

What happens if you set aside a VP card on Haven, but then the game ends before your next turn? Is the set aside card still counted towards your score? Originally I thought obviously yes, but now I'm thinking maybe not, by a strict interpretation of what "set aside" means... (which is why Island specifically tells you to put itself and its set aside card back in your deck at the end of the game).

Nah, the note on Island is just a reminder.  The basic rules state that when the game ends, all players put all their cards into their deck and count up their points.

[pst]

Base rules:

The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

Eh, no. Then you might as well argue that you don't get any points for your Victory cards. "No, the game ended before we came to the "count the victory points" parts.

[Rhombus]

I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.

[Qvist]

I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.

Yeah, I "lost track" of all the correct answers and special cases. We need the official rulebook going online.

[Donald X.]

I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.

Yeah, I "lost track" of all the correct answers and special cases. We need the official rulebook going online.

Well it won't have all of these. It covers the more normal questions though.

At the end of the game, Band of Misfits is just a Band of Misfits. Set aside cards are all in your deck.

I still feel like the rules can be consistent and have the rulings I've made be the correct ones. They may not agree with everything I've said ever, but I'd rather have said something wrong than have the rules be wrong. Anyway I still like the Procession / Band / Feast ruling as I have it.

I did say the wrong thing in a paragraph that's been quoted a bunch here, though not in a way that people have been pointing at, unless it's been in long posts full of computer code. I say, "at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash," when of course it's in your hand; Procession trashes it, it goes to your hand because it's Fortress, then Procession checks the cost. If the cost could be affected by the contents of the trash - and there was actually a card like that at one point - that would matter. There isn't such a card though, phew.

[blueblimp]

Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.

[Donald X.]

Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.

If that works then yes.

I have done card-doublers in a bunch of games, and sometimes they do actually lock in the text duplicated, blatantly. That's not relevant, I just felt like sharing. I guess it's relevant in that, it's something I feel has a chance of covering whatever situations come up.

[blueblimp]

Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.

If that works then yes.

I have done card-doublers in a bunch of games, and sometimes they do actually lock in the text duplicated, blatantly. That's not relevant, I just felt like sharing. I guess it's relevant in that, it's something I feel has a chance of covering whatever situations come up.

Thanks!

[Wolphmaniac]

So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

This could have significant endgame repercussions in the right kingdom.  Say you play three BoM's as a Throne Room (modifying a duration, thus staying out on duration) a Caravan, and a Haven (none of which you actually have any copies of)...and as long as they're on duration as those cards they are popping your six Fairgrounds for 2 extra points apiece or 12 total points.  If they don't go back to being BoM's when another player ends the game, then this could be a tactic to prevent your opponent from ending the game on their turn.     

That may be the most incredibly picayune reading of the rules I've seen in an attempt to find something crazy to do with a card.

Given everything going on in this thread and on this forum, I take that as quite the compliment!  +1 for you! 

[pauley_walnuts]

Taken from DA Rules PDF on Rio Grande's website:

Band of Misfits: When you play this, you pick an Action card from
the Supply that costs less than it, and treat this card as if it were
the card you chose. Normally this will just mean that you follow
the instructions on the card you picked. So, if you play Band of
Misfits and Fortress is in the Supply, you could pick that and then
you would draw a card and get +2 Actions, since that is what
Fortress does when you play it. Band of Misfits also gets the
chosen card's cost, name, and types. If you use Band of Misfits as
a card that trashes itself, such as Death Cart, you will trash the
Band of Misfits (at which point it will just be a Band of Misfits
card in the trash). If you use Band of Misfits as a duration card
(from Seaside), Band of Misfits will stay in play until next turn,
just like the duration card would. If you use Band of Misfits as a
Throne Room (from Dominion), King's Court (from Prosperity),
or Procession, and use that effect to play a duration card, Band of
Misfits will similarly stay in play. If you use Throne Room, King's
Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times,
you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is
still copying the same card. For example, if you use Procession to
play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you
will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of
Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed,
and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your
hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly ( more than
Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying
Fortress). If you use Band of Misfits as a card that does something
during Clean-up, such as Hermit, it will do that thing during
Clean-up. When you play Horn of Plenty (from Cornucopia), it
counts Band of Misfits as whatever Band of Misfits was played as;
for example if you play a Band of Misfits as a Fortress, and then
play another Band of Misfits as a Scavenger, and then play Horn
of Plenty, you will gain a card costing up to . Band of Misfits can
only be played as a card that is visible in the Supply; it cannot be
played as a card after its pile runs out, and cannot be played as a
non-Supply card like Mercenary; it can be played as the top card
of the Ruins pile, but no other Ruins, and can only be played as Sir
Martin when that is the top card of the Knights pile.

[Sade]

If you use Band of Misfits as a [...] King's Court (from Prosperity)

How could this possibly be done?

[Grujah]

By reducing price of KC to 4 or less, while keeping the price of BoM at 5. How do you do that? No way with current cards, but you never know.. 

[Donald X.]

If you use Band of Misfits as a [...] King's Court (from Prosperity)

How could this possibly be done?

It was possible with a Dark Ages outtake.

[axlemn]

Wow.  Darn.  I have too much time on my hands, but I just read the first 6 pages of this thread. 

I saw a problem that I thought would (and strongly believed should) resolve one way then resolve the other way.  And then I felt confused and a bit slighted.  Then I saw some extremely well-reasoned arguments about wording, and I was suddenly completely convinced. 

I just wanted to say... wow.  Good job to everyone here. 

[michaeljb]

So I'm a little late to the party, but oh well.

After doing all this reading, I have concluded that, given the cards' texts alone, Throne Room (and other 'multipliers') and Band of Misfits should behave differently when played together than the current ruling indicates. (also since the Dark Ages rulebook clearly contradicts what I'm about to say it's almost pointless for me to keep going, but I'm going to anyway, paying attention only to the text on the cards)

Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.

So when you play Throne Room, you pick an Action card in hand; if BoM is in hand, TR clearly sees it as BoM, it's not a Feast or anything else while it's in your hand. So then you play that card that you chose--which has to be BoM--two times.

Now, some of the interpretations ITT seem to be based on the idea that it goes more like this: I play TR, choose an Action card, BoM--oh BoM has suddenly already morphed into the card I'm going to play it as (say, Feast), even though I have not yet reached the instruction to play the chosen card twice, so now I've chosen BoM-as-Feast, so now I play Feast twice.

I see no real reason for BoM to make the transformation after it has been chosen but before it has been played. TR wants to pick an Action card from your hand, BoM is an Action card in your hand, BoM should be played twice, not BoM-as-Village is played twice so it must be a Village both times. That's right, I'm saying that you should be able to pick different cards for BoM to imitate/copy/be/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

But wait, you say, after TR has moved BoM to play, BoM has definitely become something else, like Smithy, so obviously it must be Smithy again. I disagree with this conclusion too. When you Throne a Feast, it gets trashed the first time, but is still played the second time--TR doesn't care where Feast is, it's just playing Feast. So why should TR care about 'finding' BoM again? TR shouldn't care that BoM isn't in play, or that now there's this Village in play that wasn't a moment ago; it should just follow the instructions of the chosen card twice, which was BoM.

Weirdly this results in BoM sitting in play as the first card that it copied. So I play TR, choose BoM, first choosing a Village, the BoM card is now in play as a Village card, then second I choose to copy Embargo, I get +$2 and can place a token, but there's no Embargo card anywhere to get trashed, so I get to keep my BoM.

Conclusion: based on a strict reading of the cards alone, when you play a Throne Room/King's Court/Procession and choose BoM, you should be able to choose a different Action card to play BoM as, each time it is played. Of course the rulebook overrides this, but oh well.

[blueblimp]

That interpretation seems consistent to me, even though it goes against the rulebook FAQs.

It depends what "it" in Throne Room refers to:

• "the card type Band of Misfits" (what you think is the natural interpretation)
• "the physical card, which is initially Band of Misfits and then Feast/Smithy/whatever" (what I think is the natural interpretation)
• "the card type Feast/Smithy/whatever that Band of Misfits adopts the first time it's played" (which is the ruling given in this thread)

[michaeljb]

I wouldn't agree that the "it" on Throne Room really refers to the type/class/whatever, I'd still say it refers to the physical card you chose, which in my example was Band of Misfits. It's just that, thinking about how TR-Feast works brought me to the conclusion that after TR has played BoM the first time, it should be able to play BoM the second time, independent of what BoM 'became' on its first play.

The two things I'm trying to say here:
-When TR goes to pick a card, it can pick BoM, and there's no sensible reason why BoM would already be something else when TR does the picking
-With Feast, TR doesn't care at all that it can't find Feast the last place it put it, it just plays Feast again. Why should TR care that there's no longer a BoM where it put it? It should just play BoM again (and you therefore get to pick a different card for BoM to copy).

[flip314]

My wife tried to convince me that she should be able to use BoM as a reaction (specifically market square).  My argument was that you don't "play" a reaction, you reveal it, set it aside, or whatever the card says to do.  However, I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that clarified the issue.

Any thoughts?

[eHalcyon]

My wife tried to convince me that she should be able to use BoM as a reaction (specifically market square).  My argument was that you don't "play" a reaction, you reveal it, set it aside, or whatever the card says to do.  However, I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that clarified the issue.

Any thoughts?

I'd be on your side.  You could play it as an Action-Reaction on your turn, but you shouldn't be able to reveal it as a reaction in response to something.

[ftl]

That seems right. You don't play reactions, you reveal them.

[billyswong]

I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.

[billyswong]

As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

[RiemannZetaJones]

As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.

[RiemannZetaJones]

I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.

While this makes sense, it is not what the rules say, and I don't see why you posted it. The thread isn't really about telling us what the rules are, we can now look them up. The thread is about producing a mental model that explains the rules as they are printed.