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Author Topic: Band of Misfits rules questions  (Read 126878 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2012, 04:31:20 pm »
+2

To be clear, I see how TR of BoM-as-Feast could be interpreted as forcing the second play to be a Feast: when Throne Room says "it", it doesn't refer to the particular BoM card, but instead remembers the name "Feast".

My hang-up is that in the Ironworks/Trader ruling, it seems clear that the Ironworks doesn't remember the name of the card it would have gained. Why can Throne Room remember names but Ironworks can't?
Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.
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rinkworks

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
+1

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

Sounds like BoM isn't really even part of your question.  You seem to be asking why Throne Rooming an actual Feast works.  Or do I misunderstand?

Anyway, seems like TR-BoMasFeast would work the same as TR-Feast regardless.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2012, 04:32:26 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

Throne Room interacts with Feast, so that is the card that gets Throne Roomed, not BoM. You are not targeting BoM with TR, you are targeting Feast which BoM is when you play it.
Which Feast? What is the "it" on Throne Room referring to?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2012, 04:32:43 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

The Feast that it's now lost track of. It's pretty similar to when you... you know... Throne Room a Feast.
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Voltaire

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2012, 04:32:52 pm »
+1

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?
BoM is a Ditto. It morphed into Feast.

If there's an issue with that*, it's that you can Throne Room a Feast in the first place, not any sort of BoM interaction.

*there's not

/ninja'd by everyone
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:34:23 pm by Voltaire »
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Davio

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2012, 04:32:57 pm »
0

This is from the base rules:
Quote
If you use Throne Room on Feast, you will
gain two cards, even though you can only trash Feast once.
Gaining the card isn't contingent on trashing Feast; they're just
two things that the card tries to make you do.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2012, 04:33:12 pm »
0

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

Sounds like BoM isn't really even part of your question.  You seem to be asking why Throne Rooming an actual Feast works.  Or do I misunderstand?

Anyway, seems like TR-BoMasFeast would work the same as TR-Feast regardless.
No, Throne Rooming a Feast is fine, because the second time the Feast gets played, it's played while it's in the trash, but that's okay. There is still a Feast card that's being played. I know what "it" means here.
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Donald X.

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2012, 04:33:16 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.
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Donald X.

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2012, 04:33:56 pm »
+6

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
No, that way lies madness.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2012, 04:35:40 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.
In this case it's the ashes of the Feast card that are getting played. Similar to how, even if a card had some words covered up on the front, we'd still know how to play it, because we remember what was printed on it.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2012, 04:38:32 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

The Feast that it's now lost track of. It's pretty similar to when you... you know... Throne Room a Feast.
From what we know of the "lose track" rule so far:
Quote
The "lose track" rule is this (don't hold me to this precise wording okay): If card A is doing stuff with card B, and something other than card A moves card B somewhere else, card A can no longer keep moving card B. It "loses track" of it.
So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #136 on: August 15, 2012, 04:38:54 pm »
+3

blueblimp's question stems from BoM reverting to BoM when it leaves play.

When you throne a Feast, the card being played the second time is still a Feast -- it's just in the trash.

When you throne a BoM-as-Feast, the second play no longer has a Feast to refer to -- the card in the trash has reverted, it is no longer Feast, it is a BoM again.




Perhaps the proper answer is that, when you throne a Feast, the second play doesn't care about the Feats at all, whether it is in the trash or whatever.  It just knows, "I played Feast the first time, I am going to play Feast again."  So when you throne BoM-as-Feast, the TR on the second play goes, "I played Feast the first time, I am going to play Feast again," even though the Feast is not even a Feast anymore.
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ftl

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2012, 04:44:12 pm »
0

So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2012, 04:47:16 pm »
0

So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)

Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2012, 04:50:06 pm »
0

So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)
But at that point, BoM is no longer a Feast, so it's not true anymore that "Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card".
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #140 on: August 15, 2012, 04:57:39 pm »
+1

Since Dominion cards are sort of like little computer programs, it might be useful to imagine implementing it as a computer program (in pseudo-code). This is how I might first try to implement Band of Misfits. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it illustrates the general idea. And it shows why it's pretty natural for the second play of BoM to allow a different choice than the first one, in my opinion.
Code: [Select]
def playFeast(card):
  card.trash()
  Gain a card costing up to $5.


class Feast:
  def play():
    playFeast(this)


def playMonument(card):
  +$2
  +1 VP token


class Monument:
  def play():
    playMonument(this)


def playThroneRoom(card):
  Choose an Action card 'x' in your hand.
  x.play()
  x.play()


class ThroneRoom:
  def play():
    playThroneRoom(this)


class BandOfMisfits:
  Initially, this.howToPlay = NULL

  def play():
    if this.howToPlay == NULL:
      First time...  this.howToPlay = playFeast
      Second time... this.howToPlay = playMonument

    this.howToPlay(this)

  def onLeavesPlay():
    this.howToPlay = NULL
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:58:47 pm by blueblimp »
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ftl

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #141 on: August 15, 2012, 05:01:26 pm »
+2

Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D

Hehe. That can only happen if you used the first Feast to gain a Feast, though! Since there had to be a Feast in the supply for BoM to be one.

=
But at that point, BoM is no longer a Feast, so it's not true anymore that "Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card".

Right, the Feast transformed into a BoM after being played. So TR plays the Feast that was there before but now magically transformed into a BoM! Weird. But there was definitely a Feast there before, and that's the card that Throne Room is playing twice.

I mean, I can certainly see your side of it, I think either interpretation can make sense, but this is the one Donald has picked for how this card works so I'm trying to explain it.
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Voltaire

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #142 on: August 15, 2012, 05:03:47 pm »
0

I mean, I can certainly see your side of it, I think either interpretation can make sense, but this is the one Donald has picked for how this card works so I'm trying to explain it.
Plus, Donald X's interpretation is what I think the vast majority of players, who will never visit this forum, will interpret the card. Erring on the side of that would make sense, too, if both are plausible.
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2012, 05:04:13 pm »
0

Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D

Hehe. That can only happen if you used the first Feast to gain a Feast, though! Since there had to be a Feast in the supply for BoM to be one.

 ;D
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clb

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #144 on: August 15, 2012, 05:09:10 pm »
+3

The way that it sits in my head is that when TR "plays" Feast, it is doing that independent of the card - moving it doesn't change TR's action, nor does changing Feast's name (to BoM or something). TR isn't reaching into the grave to temporarily reanimate a card. Rather, TR receives its marching instructions from the card that is played, and then moves forward, doing that twice in a row, regardless if its general dies, changes his name, or whatever; TR is diligent and continues its given instructions. For me, in order to make the TR-Feast thing work in the first place, I had to divorce the second playing of the card from the card itself and append it to TR, independent an opperable on its own. This is because, for me, cards cannot be played from the trash - they aren't in play. Hence, TR must have some way of, on its own, retaining instructions. So BoM as Feast provided instructions, and leaves. Those instructions are still carried out.
That may not make sense to anyone else, but that it how it resolves in my head.
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jamuspsi

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #145 on: August 15, 2012, 05:11:29 pm »
+1

I think throne room explicitly acts on cards, and I think that BoM is one of those cards that is affected by the whole "while this is in play" thing.  Like highway.

As I understand it, throning a highway doesn't reduce costs by $2, because it goes down like this:
1. Play throne room, moving it from hand to in play.
2. Choose highway from hand
3. Play highway, moving it from hand to in play
4. Play that same highway, not moving it because it is already in play.
Conclusion: There is only one highway in play.  It was played twice.

When playing with cards I feel this is like playing the highway, then picking it up, then playing it again.  So the card's instructions happen when it hits the table, and throne room causes it to hit the table twice (though it never leaves play).

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

As for the throne room-BoM question, I think you pick once for normal cards, twice for cards that remove themselves from play.  Throne room specifically says that you play the CARD (that card) twice.  BoM refers to that same card (this card) with its transformation and replay.

So throne room-bom-smithy would be like:
1. Throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes a smithy
1.2.2. Play that card.
1.3. Play that second card again (from play).  It never left play, so it is still a smithy.


But throne room-bom-as-feast would be:
1. throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes feast.
1.2.2. Play that card (from play)
1.2.2.1 Trash that card.  (it becomes BoM in the trash)
1.2.2.2 Gain a card
1.3 Play that second card again (from the trash, since throne room doesn't lose track of feast, it shouldn't lose track of BoM).  It moves from trash to in play.
1.3.1 That card becomes smithy (or anything)
1.3.2 Play that card (from play)

Is there another way to reconcile it with how "while this is in play" interacts with throne room/kings court?
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #146 on: August 15, 2012, 05:15:08 pm »
0

I think throne room explicitly acts on cards, and I think that BoM is one of those cards that is affected by the whole "while this is in play" thing.  Like highway.

As I understand it, throning a highway doesn't reduce costs by $2, because it goes down like this:
1. Play throne room, moving it from hand to in play.
2. Choose highway from hand
3. Play highway, moving it from hand to in play
4. Play that same highway, not moving it because it is already in play.
Conclusion: There is only one highway in play.  It was played twice.

When playing with cards I feel this is like playing the highway, then picking it up, then playing it again.  So the card's instructions happen when it hits the table, and throne room causes it to hit the table twice (though it never leaves play).

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

As for the throne room-BoM question, I think you pick once for normal cards, twice for cards that remove themselves from play.  Throne room specifically says that you play the CARD (that card) twice.  BoM refers to that same card (this card) with its transformation and replay.

So throne room-bom-smithy would be like:
1. Throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes a smithy
1.2.2. Play that card.
1.3. Play that second card again (from play).  It never left play, so it is still a smithy.


But throne room-bom-as-feast would be:
1. throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes feast.
1.2.2. Play that card (from play)
1.2.2.1 Trash that card.  (it becomes BoM in the trash)
1.2.2.2 Gain a card
1.3 Play that second card again (from the trash, since throne room doesn't lose track of feast, it shouldn't lose track of BoM).  It moves from trash to in play.
1.3.1 That card becomes smithy (or anything)
1.3.2 Play that card (from play)

Is there another way to reconcile it with how "while this is in play" interacts with throne room/kings court?
I agree with most of this, but when Throne Room plays a card that's in the trash, it can't move it to play, because it has lost track of it. So step "1.3" is not quite right, in my opinion, since "it moves from trash to in play" doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:16:46 pm by blueblimp »
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jamuspsi

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #147 on: August 15, 2012, 05:23:00 pm »
0

I agree with most of this, but when Throne Room plays a card that's in the trash, it can't move it to play, because it has lost track of it. So step "1.3" is not quite right, in my opinion, since "it moves from trash to in play" doesn't happen.

I agree with that, come to think of it; I think I parsed Donald's ruling on feast as being that it can't be trashed the second time (because it's in the trash) but can be played twice anyway.  So it doesn't move out of the trash into play.  Either way, it's been played FROM the trash, and having made a stop at the trash, I think it probably isn't the feast anymore, and should be played as a fresh BoM.  Throne room shouldn't retain any magic about what BoM turned into after it played it the first time- all it cares about is "Play it (that card) twice."  Whatever that card happens to be at that moment.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2012, 05:37:27 pm »
+5

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.
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jamuspsi

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #149 on: August 15, 2012, 05:46:23 pm »
+1

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.

Even if that's the case, there's not really, I don't think, such a thing as TR-Feast.  There's TR-Card.  If it transforms just before you play it (because it says play this as) then it becomes feast for TR to play it the first time.  As part of becoming another card, it loses its transforming text until it leaves play, so Smithy wouldn't allow you to pick twice.

But if it becomes feast, gets played as feast by TR, leaves play, becomes BoM again, then the TR plays "it" again and a new selection needs to be made so that TR can play it as some other card.
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