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adf

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2012, 04:03:56 pm »
+1

What was the isotropic/prototype art for Band of Misfits?
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werothegreat

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2012, 04:04:59 pm »
+3

I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.

I think the "this is that card until it leaves play" clause rather firmly supports that ruling.
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2012, 04:06:50 pm »
+7

But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.

You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:

  • I put the Throne Room card in play. "I play a Throne Room!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to choose an Action in my hand and play it twice. I'll do that! Let's play that Smithy from my hand! Twice!

In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play a Band of Misfits!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to play it as another Action in the supply. I'll do that! Let's play it as a Smithy!

So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play this as a Smithy!" What do I do now? Oho, I draw three cards. Okay.

Right?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2012, 04:09:44 pm »
+6

OK, here's my attempt at a decent explanation of why Throne Room/Band of Misfits/Feast works the way it does.

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …" So, Smithy would read, "When you play this, +3 Cards." You'll notice that all Treasure cards that do things other than give coins have this wording explicitly.

Band of Misfits doesn't have this wording, implicit or otherwise. Band of Misfits becomes a card you choose during the act of playing it, before it hits the table (and hence before you actually play it). That's also a good reason why the "This is that card until it leaves play" bit isn't a separate step you take. There are no steps at all on Band of Misfits because it doesn't truly have an on-play effect like every other Action card does.

Does that sound good?

EDIT: Dang, ninja'd by AJD. Great minds think alike!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 04:13:59 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2012, 04:10:11 pm »
0

Right?

Seems right.  Throne room is telling you to play it... "Play it" in the same sense that you would if you were playing it as an action-consuming event in your action phase.  When you play BoM (for whatever reason) it is something else until it leaves play.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2012, 04:12:59 pm »
+1

I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.
Here's how I'd work it out.

Throne Room reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.". I think this should be equivalent to "Choose an Action card A in your hand. Play A. Play A.". Same meaning, but it's easier to work out carefully.

Suppose we have a card X in hand. X is a Band of Misfits. We also have a Throne Room in hand.

We play Throne Room. We choose X as the card for Throne Room to play. So A = X.

Throne Room's first "play X" happens now. X's BoM effect takes over. We choose to have it played as a Feast. X is now a Feast, with the stipulation that when X leaves play, X will be a BoM again.

The first step of Feast is "trash this card". So we trash X. At this point, X has left play, so it becomes a BoM. The second step of Feast is "gain a card costing up to $5". So we do (this part doesn't really matter).

Throne Room's second "play X" happens now. Since X is a Band of Misfits, X's BoM effect takes over. We choose to have it played as <whatever>, doesn't need to be a Feast.
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #106 on: August 15, 2012, 04:14:25 pm »
+2

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2012, 04:16:36 pm »
+1

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Oh, but it is! Just before the +$1!

Quote
Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.

Exactly.
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Donald X.

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2012, 04:16:51 pm »
+6

What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:
Yes, playing BoM as Smithy should be exactly the same as playing a Smithy. The card in your hand gave you options, but what you played was a Smithy; it doesn't get played and then sit in play waiting for you to pick the card to play it as (although I don't remember offhand what the display shows in the online version there).

And that wording was chosen specifically because it cleared up some rules questions like this one.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2012, 04:18:27 pm »
0

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2012, 04:19:19 pm »
0

And that wording was chosen specifically because it cleared up some rules questions like this one.

Well, obviously I'm not totally confident that the wording had that desired effect ;), but your explanations have. Thanks.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2012, 04:20:30 pm »
0

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

Throne Room never sees the card as anything other than what you declare it to be. So if you Throne Room a Feast, it's not playing that particular physical card twice. It's playing Feast twice.
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mnavratil

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2012, 04:20:45 pm »
+1

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

With this interpretation Throne Room never actually plays the Bom, it plays the Feast directly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by LastFootnote.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2012, 04:21:45 pm »
+1

To be clear, I see how TR of BoM-as-Feast could be interpreted as forcing the second play to be a Feast: when Throne Room says "it", it doesn't refer to the particular BoM card, but instead remembers the name "Feast".

My hang-up is that in the Ironworks/Trader ruling, it seems clear that the Ironworks doesn't remember the name of the card it would have gained. Why can Throne Room remember names but Ironworks can't?
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Davio

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2012, 04:22:22 pm »
0

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2012, 04:23:02 pm »
0

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

With this interpretation Throne Room never actually plays the Bom, it plays the Feast directly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by LastFootnote.
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2012, 04:24:02 pm »
0

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2012, 04:24:34 pm »
0

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
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ftl

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2012, 04:25:42 pm »
+1

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2012, 04:26:16 pm »
0

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?
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Davio

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2012, 04:27:15 pm »
0

So BoM just morphs into whatever it wants to be as long as there are still copies of the card you want it to be in the Supply.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2012, 04:28:03 pm »
0

So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

The instructions for Feast are in the Supply. If Feast wasn't in the Supply (say because the pile was empty), then Band of Misfits can't become Feast.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2012, 04:28:48 pm »
0

So BoM just morphs into whatever it wants to be as long as there are still copies of the card you want it to be in the Supply.

Yes. As long as it cost less than BoM.
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blueblimp

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2012, 04:28:53 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2012, 04:30:00 pm »
0

But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

Throne Room interacts with Feast, so that is the card that gets Throne Roomed, not BoM. You are not targeting BoM with TR, you are targeting Feast which BoM is when you play it.
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