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[Beyond Awesome]

So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.

Some weird interactions with existing cards:

• Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
• Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
• Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
• Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.
  
  Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
• Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.

[blueblimp]

So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.

Some weird interactions with existing cards:

• Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
• Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
• Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
• Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.
  
  Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
• Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.

Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.

So okay, let's play a Band of Misfits. First step: "play this as if it were an Action card in the supply costing less than it that you choose". OK, TMap is in the supply, and I choose it, and now play as it. First step: "trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand". Okay, I trash the Band-of-Misfits (which is still a BoM, keep in mind!), at which point it leaves play, along with a Treasure Map from my hand. Next step: "if you do trash two Treasure Maps, ...". But I didn't, I trashed a BoM and a TMap, so I don't get the reward.

Okay, done first step of BoM. Second step: "this is that card until it leaves play". That is, the BoM (which is now in the trash) becomes a Treasure Map, "until it leaves play". Well, it already left play, so too late, it'll need to leave play again sometime later to revert back to BoM.

[pauley_walnuts]

It's really the various when-you-trash-this and when-you-(would-)discard-this-from-play interactions that are going to make Band of Misfits confusing. I have no idea how those are going to work.

Well, most, if not all, TFB cards are when they are trashed from your hand. Band of Misfits becomes a different action when you play it, so if you trash it from hand, it will still be a Band of Misfits, so you wont get any TFB.

I think he may have been talking about cards like Mining Village and Embargo that are trashed after they are played. Since BoM assumed those cards, if I choose to trash it for +$2 (a la Mining Village), does BoM get trashed? I brought this up discreetly earlier when we weren't allowed to talk about the cards.

[Voltaire]

So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.

Some weird interactions with existing cards:

• Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
• Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
• Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
• Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.
  
  Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
• Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.

Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.

So okay, let's play a Band of Misfits. First step: "play this as if it were an Action card in the supply costing less than it that you choose". OK, TMap is in the supply, and I choose it, and now play as it. First step: "trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand". Okay, I trash the Band-of-Misfits (which is still a BoM, keep in mind!), at which point it leaves play, along with a Treasure Map from my hand. Next step: "if you do trash two Treasure Maps, ...". But I didn't, I trashed a BoM and a TMap, so I don't get the reward.

Okay, done first step of BoM. Second step: "this is that card until it leaves play". That is, the BoM (which is now in the trash) becomes a Treasure Map, "until it leaves play". Well, it already left play, so too late, it'll need to leave play again sometime later to revert back to BoM.

No, I think you're missing something - I read "this is that card" as simply explaining when BoM morphs back into BoM - a clarification, not another step. Remember, the first step is "Play this as if it were an Action card..." and you did - you played it as a TM! So the other TM sees it and they trash.

*of course, this is just my reasoned guess!

[AJD]

Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash.

Not sure I buy this. "This is that card until it leaves play" sounds a whole lot like a while-in-play clause, not an on-play event. It's a Treasure Map while it's in play, and it's not a Treasure Map when it's not in play, period.

But the interaction of BoM with trash-from-play cards is still confusing to me. You get 4 Golds "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Well, one of the cards you trashed was a Treasure Map before you trashed it, but before it hit the Trash pile it became a Band of Misfits again. Do you get your four Golds?

Or even: play Band of Misfits. Play it as Embargo. As you do when you play a card, you follow the instructions on it one at a time. So, first instruction, get +$2. Second instruction, you trash it. Now the card is in the trash, it's not an Embargo anymore... and since it's not an Embargo, there are no instructions left to follow. Do you still place an embargo token?

[pst]

I'm jumping on the thinking-about-interactions-before-we've-seen-the-faq bandwagon!

Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?

(Edit: clearer)

[Insomniac]

For BoM there COULD be something glitchy to code with the specs

1) If the supply is empty it can't be that card


I KC+BOM, choose rats (of which there are 2 left). First resolution I gain rats, second resolution I gain rats, Third resolution should be (I think) resolve rats.

But it could easily be coded in a way that it doesn't know what to do here as rats are no longer in the supply. A fringe case, and one that could easily be a good foresight to have as it could be missed.

[Voltaire]

Man, now I know why the "lose track" rule is in the Dark Ages rulebook!

[AJD]

(I'll note that the general "play this as if it were another card in the supply" concept has been a very common fan card proposal, and usually shot down because of the rules paradoxes it would cause....)

[Donald X.]

• Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.

Don't see how it matters, either way you get a Band of Misfits on your deck.

• Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.
  
  Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
• Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

You can play BoM as Treasure Map, trash another Treasure Map from your hand, and gain four Golds. You did trash two Treasure Maps. In the trash it's a BoM again though.

[Donald X.]

Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.

No, "this is that card until it leaves play" is telling you when the effect ends and clarifying how it works; it's the first sentence that causes BoM to be the other card.

[Donald X.]

I think he may have been talking about cards like Mining Village and Embargo that are trashed after they are played. Since BoM assumed those cards, if I choose to trash it for +$2 (a la Mining Village), does BoM get trashed? I brought this up discreetly earlier when we weren't allowed to talk about the cards.

The two main question answers for BoM are: 1) if you play it as a Feast etc., you trash the BoM; and 2) if you play it as a duration or throne on a duration, it stays out.

[blueblimp]

• Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.

Don't see how it matters, either way you get a Band of Misfits on your deck.

Good point, I should have said one is a BoM-as-a-Village and the other is a BoM-as-a-Fishing-Village (just played this turn). So the second can't get returned to your deck at the end of this turn, and so it matters which you pick.

[werothegreat]

Hey Donald - you suck for not being grateful enough to Kirian etc.
But that doesn't make you an incredible monster.
Hope this is clear enough for you!

http://chainsawsuit.com/2011/10/21/cautions-from-a-former-employer/

I was always under the impression that that phrase was meant to imply that you should get out as quickly as possibly, butt-hitting suggesting that you're taking your sweet ass time to leave.

[Donald X.]

But the interaction of BoM with trash-from-play cards is still confusing to me. You get 4 Golds "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Well, one of the cards you trashed was a Treasure Map before you trashed it, but before it hit the Trash pile it became a Band of Misfits again. Do you get your four Golds?

When you trashed BoM it was a Treasure Map; you did trash a Treasure Map. It just isn't one anymore.

Or even: play Band of Misfits. Play it as Embargo. As you do when you play a card, you follow the instructions on it one at a time. So, first instruction, get +$2. Second instruction, you trash it. Now the card is in the trash, it's not an Embargo anymore... and since it's not an Embargo, there are no instructions left to follow. Do you still place an embargo token?

You still place the token.

[werothegreat]

What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

[LastFootnote]

Hey Donald - you suck for not being grateful enough to Kirian etc.
But that doesn't make you an incredible monster.
Hope this is clear enough for you!

http://chainsawsuit.com/2011/10/21/cautions-from-a-former-employer/

I was always under the impression that that phrase was meant to imply that you should get out as quickly as possibly, butt-hitting suggesting that you're taking your sweet ass time to leave.

You should probably put a hyphen in there somewhere.

http://xkcd.com/37/

[blueblimp]

Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).

[LastFootnote]

What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

[AJD]

What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

That seems to be answered above, especially with the discussion of Treasure Map. If it's trashed from play, it gives the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics. (If it's trashed from elsewhere, it's not mimicking anything.)

[blueblimp]

What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

It seems clear to me that it should. Trashing is one possible way for a card to leave play, so the on-trash effect and the revert-to-BoM effect both trigger, which means they will both happen (in the order the player chooses).

[LastFootnote]

What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

That seems to be answered above, especially with the discussion of Treasure Map. If it's trashed from play, it gives the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics. (If it's trashed from elsewhere, it's not mimicking anything.)

Treasure Map doesn't have an on-trash benefit. It trashes itself and another copy of itself when you play it.

[Donald X.]

Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?

No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

[Donald X.]

(I'll note that the general "play this as if it were another card in the supply" concept has been a very common fan card proposal, and usually shot down because of the rules paradoxes it would cause....)

I took it out of the set at one point, but decided this wording made it workable.

[Donald X.]

Good point, I should have said one is a BoM-as-a-Village and the other is a BoM-as-a-Fishing-Village (just played this turn). So the second can't get returned to your deck at the end of this turn, and so it matters which you pick.

Ah. Yes in this situation you want to know which is which and I am betting that nothing will track that but the log. Possibly there's some graphic solution involving overlaying the card you played BoM as over the BoM.