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[Cuzz]

Moving on though, I like that you've brought up everything you find slightly suspicious. (Though this could be a good mafia play to generally raise suspicions on everyone for small behaviours.) Does anyone (Cuzz in particular) else have anything to say in response to Eevee's post?

Why me in particular? In any case, I was planning on addressing the comments Eevee made about me.

Cuzz's answer to my survey:

Hmm, I feel like answering all of your questions would be a major FMFP. However:
3. Nice try. My role PM did seem to contain an unnecessary amount of gender confusion though.

4. Again nice try. I've been hurt too many times before.

What does FMFP stand for? I called him out for dodging the question, he laughed it off and never really answered it. Which is maybe slightly scummy.

Haha, FMFP stood for forum mafia faux pas, ie what I was concerned about making a lot of in my first game. It's gonna catch on, just watch. I perhaps wrongly interpreted your whole survey as simply screwing around with the new folks (the third question in particular), hence the joking around. I was also nervous about saying much of anything at the beginning (and no, not for any scummy reason), before I got a feel for the game, and then I think I just forgot to go back and answer sincerely. Your question was who would send in the order for a NK if we were a scum team? I guess I'd say whomever has had less suspicion on them in case we have a Jailkeeper in this game, though neither of us has had any serious accusations so far.

This is somewhat interesting because I was later called out on flying under the radar or whatever the wording was. I'll remember to check who said that and what ashersky thought of it when I get that far. (Note: in the next post Cuzz also asks if Eevee talking too much and maybe suspicious because of that.)

As for this, I basically agree with what ashersky has just said:

On you being memorable and then under the radar (that was me that said it), it's possible to be both.  I really shouldn't have said "under the radar," since it sounds like I meant lurking, but it really meant saying things that kept us from thinking about you in any meaningful way, but instead kept us thinking about others (much like this incredibly long post that says zip about yourself).  So not really "under the radar" so much as wearing an invisibility cloak...or something.  And it seems like a great way to keep from being outed as scum, you know, to keep everyone else occupied with thinking about everyone else.

though I don't think this is quite as sinister as he claims. I just mean I agree with the explanation for what people meant when they called you "under the radar."

When I asked if you were talking too much earlier, I was mostly kidding, but trying to get a general idea from others as to how I should interpret everyone's behavior.

Hey guys, let's ease up on the RVS votes for me a bit here. Wouldn't want to accidentally lynch me already. It only takes 5 votes, people.

Yeah, this line plus everything O said has made me suspicious (the last point was especially convincing).

I'm for building the Vote: Robz888 bandwagon back up.

Cuzz jumps on the wagon too. He puts Robz at L-1, but claims he didn't notice ashersky's vote before posting. Ashersky posted exactly 5 minutes before him, so it's certainly possible Cuzz is lying about that. If robz flips scum, there is no way in hell Cuzz is scum too.

... except that Cuzz unvotes when Robz tells him there is a morgrim on the loose. So Cuzz probably wasnt lying about not seeing ashersky's post, and legitimately did not want to put robz in L-1.

The thing about not seeing ashersky's post is true. I was actually shocked when I saw it, because I anticipated I might get a warning from the forum as I posted, and that didn't happen. I must have screwed up somehow. I did want to put more pressure on Robz, but would not have intentionally put him at L-1. I admit I was a bit hesitant to unvote, because I do think there's a good chance Robz is scum, but I then decided to slow things down.

[yuma]

As the clock ticked its way to 5 o'clock in the afternoon--well I guess the time could be at any point, depending on how soon you guys lynch--the tournament players grew more restless. Someone suggested Robz and O battle out their differences in a thumb war. That just isn't fair though. O lost his good thumb in a scythe incident a couple years back... And Robz burned his on a hot iron. So much for that.... I guess they will just have to wait and see who gets the most votes.

Vote Count 1-8

Robz888 (4): O, Cuzz, Captain_Frisk, Morgrim7
Morgrim7 (2): Robz888, GeoLib

Not voting (3): Eevee, Jorbles, ashersky

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Lynch deadline: Monday, August 27, at noon forum time (EDT)

[Jorbles]

Moving on though, I like that you've brought up everything you find slightly suspicious. (Though this could be a good mafia play to generally raise suspicions on everyone for small behaviours.) Does anyone (Cuzz in particular) else have anything to say in response to Eevee's post?

Why me in particular? In any case, I was planning on addressing the comments Eevee made about me.

It was originally going to say "(ashersky and Cuzz in particular)" but then I saw that ashersky had already replied, but it's because Eevee brought up points about you guys that I didn't think had been adequately answered by you, and I wanted to hear your response. I'm glad you've responded, and I guess that all makes sense. I wanted to be able to compare the two of your motivations for your wagon jumping. My original slight town read on you stands. My read on ashersky is still slightly scummy though. More so because of this:

I think I may have been a little quick to join wagons in the beginning, and that's from this being my first ever Mafia game.  I would note I'm currently voting for no one and won't be the one to hammer Robz.  I stand by what I said on my gut feeling on the guy, though.

It kinda feels like scum going overboard at the start and then hedging.

[GeoLib]

Am I right that the mod post is just flavor and doesn't contain any other information (other than vote count)? Not that the flavor isn't appreciated 

[yuma]

Am I right that the mod post is just flavor and doesn't contain any other information (other than vote count)? Not that the flavor isn't appreciated 

Anything beside the vote count is flavor and only flavor, at least in this game

[GeoLib]

Am I right that the mod post is just flavor and doesn't contain any other information (other than vote count)? Not that the flavor isn't appreciated 

Anything beside the vote count is flavor and only flavor, at least in this game

Ok. That's what I figured. It just almost seemed like you were suggesting that the alternative to a Robz lynch was an O lynch.

I believe someone (don't remember who) said earlier that a Morgrim lynch gives us less information than another lynch. Could you explain why please?

It's because scum don't need to invent a reason to lynch Morgrim.  You can't read someone's case against someone when voting for Morgrim and argue with it - because its iron clad.  When a confirmed cop outs scum - you have the same problem - the wagons contain less information because there's no BAD reason to vote.

So it's a bad idea to lynch Morgrim because it's such a good idea to lynch Morgrim. Hahaha. This game is ridiculous.

Speaking of Morgrim, he hasn't said much recently. Morgrim! Analyze. Contribute. Convince me we shouldn't lynch you!

[GeoLib]

Oh and your argument, Frisk, is only true if Morgrim flips town, correct? If he flips scum then we can analyze the wagon because the other scum would have wanted to prevent the lynch.

[ashersky]

I think I may have been a little quick to join wagons in the beginning, and that's from this being my first ever Mafia game.  I would note I'm currently voting for no one and won't be the one to hammer Robz.  I stand by what I said on my gut feeling on the guy, though.

It kinda feels like scum going overboard at the start and then hedging.

I think it was more going overboard at the start and then reeling myself in as I learned the pace of the game.

I'm getting a strong town read from Jorbles, for what that's worth.  Like, really, really town.  Too town?

[Eevee]

A quick note before I start compiling the 2nd half of that post:

As Robz so likes to remind me, I always read these kind of long posts as huge town tells. Which they are to an extent, but not always. Scum can do it too, and if you don't provide any original analysis (which I believe I have), it is actually an easy way for scum to post without having to reveal your true colors. My primary goal isn't to find who to vote for today, but rather to make the flip of that person as informational as possible by exploring connections between people. I dont think re-reading is going to help us much today, because the scummy stuff people do, is not necessarily in what they say (because people know to be careful, they know what we know). It is in what later info reveals of what they said earlier. So I'm primarily looking to find these "if X flips town, that means Y" connections between people.

Anyways, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found the re-read helpful. Btw, the quotes are indeed links to said posts, so if you feel something in my post is not accurate or that I left something out, just click the link, read yourself and correct me! Going to continue from page 9 now -->

[Robz888]

Why do you find me scummy, Eevee? Because I leaped on Morgrim? I leaped on Morgrim because he was even crazier than usual, to the extent that it didn't even sound like town Morgrim. I found O's insistence that Morgrim was innocent mildly baffling, and called this out too. This makes me scummy? I'm sure you don't actually expect me to flip scum, which is why I don't understand you supporting my death.

I realize now I should be trying hard to convince you not to vote for me. Like, you must realize I'm not scum. You think scum Robz would have done today like this? I would have pounced on Morgrim? I would have voted uncautiously? Scum Robz would not, would never do these things. Town Robz did them because it's usually Galzria's job and he isn't in this game.

[Eevee]

O asking Robz why morgrim is a good (policy) lynch:

also, more importantly, why is the play seriously out of hand?

Because Morgrim gave away his role immediately! And self-voted!

To which O answered he thinks these things are standard for Morg.

ashersky answering Rob'z inquiry about the reason for voting him (and getting confused of my gender in the process):

I've given my reasons for my vote for you, Robz888.  I won't say you're blatantly scummy, just giving off the scumvibe, which is enough on D1 to garner my suspicion (and vote).  I'd put Eevee in there with you, based on her extreme neutrality on every case so far.  Strikes me as scum trying to stay on everyone's good side. 
Frisk is sending out good vibes in limited action.  I don't have a real read on the rest.

I'm quite surprised to see the town-read on Frisk here, I don't feel he had said much anything at this point really, let alone enough to deserve a town read, but okay. Not very surprised ashersky finds me scummy, this is exactly the problem with especially day 1 as I see it. People look for patterns that have nothing to do with alignments but rather personalities and posting styles. It's why Insomniac always gets killed day 1 for example. I think looking at relations between people is much much more effective than looking at how they behave / word their accusations, because those things pretty much stay the same regardless of alignment + are super WIFOM when they don't.

This is interesting:

Also, I'd like to hear from Cuzz and Ashersky, the world's fastest wagon-joiners.

1st game jitters? It's easy to get caught up in the moment.

So robz calls out the new guys for being too eager to vote and the only new guy not guilty of it defends them. I too am getting a good vibe from Jorbles because of things like this, but we shouldn't confuse someone being a good guy with their alignment in this game.

Morgrim posts again:

Robz is being scummy, like voting for me, but I'm not ready to vote for him yet. Rather, Unvote. I would also like to hear ashersky explain why he so quickly voted for me.

Him not being ready to vote for someone is truly shocking, but other than that this doesn't say much.

Me defending Morgrim, trying to get the wagon to cool down:

Everyone, I don't think Morgrim is scum. Too inconsistent for that, he is just having fun with us (just like O was with his "force myself to L-1"-plan). My favorite lynch for today would actually be robz, even if it would suck to lose such a strong townie.

Me sort of being for the suggested morgrim-policy lynch, except not really:

Even if I dont think morg is playing scummy, taking one for the f.ds-mafiacommunity and policylynching him is not an out of the realm idea and I do see town-robz possibly proposing it (as well as scum robz ofc). But we should probably let the new guys enjoy him first, maybe punish him in some 20 player behemoth where day1 lynch is more random anyways.

Next Morgrim claims he didn't realize claiming VT is anti-town and asks why it's so. Robz provides the explanation, morgrim accepts it.

Jorbles scumhunting Frisk and clarifying rather hedgily where he stands on the robz issue:

I think O made some pretty good points against Robz, but we've got time. I'm interested in hearing from Frisk on why he is voting for Robz. At the time of initial vote it looked like a random vote, but now that it's still sticking around I want a bit more explanation. Presumably some of the points people have made have resonated with him, but I want to read it from his typing hands.

Morgrim posts this (Robz at L-2):

Lets not put another vote on Robz until we are sure we want to lynch him. L-1 is dangerous.

Dont know what can be inferred from it, but Morgrim being careful of someone accidentally getting lynched too fast seems noteworthy.

At this point, Frisk answers Jorbles by unvoting Robz and says "it was indeed pure random, I'm not catched up".

GeoLib stating what he thinks of policy-lynching Morgrim:

I think that we should keep scumhunting, but that if we don't get anywhere we should policy-lynch Morgrim. The anti-town behavior right off the bat was pretty appalling. I still don't buy O's reasoning that
All this being said, I agree with Eevee that we should hold off on a policy-lynch until we're sure we can't find more probable scum. I just think we should hold a Morgrim lynch as a reserve.

In the same post, GeoLib also talks about Robz and O:

I think O's case against Robz seems plausible, so I'd put Robz as slightly scummier than your average 2/9ths. OTOH I think that the single-mindedness with which O is pursuing Robz shows a certainty that I don't think any townie could have. Only scum know exactly who the scum are... So that puts O as slightly scummy in my books as well.

This looks very hedgy to me, it's like he is touching all the issues but still not really saying anything meaningful.

Robz seeing scumpairs and explaining why he thinks morgrim is scum:

Morgrim's likely pre-game convo with scumbuddy:

Morgrim: "I'm going to be batshit insane right from the beginning, and get away with the Morgrim Insanity Defense all game! As long as I stay consistent with all the games where I was town, I won't be suspected! After all, Robz always says that crazy Morgrim is town Morgrim." Then he overplayed things by being too crazy. That wasn't crazy Morgrim, that was Morgrim trying to act like crazy Morgrim.
Now, did O swoop in to dramatically rescue his scumbuddy? Sure looks like that to me.

Personally, I dont find the O-Morgrim theory very likely. It is a possibility, but since we can't ever catch one scum member day 1, stumbling upon two doesn't feel probable.

Jorbles is asked to tell what he thinks of everyone, and does so in this rather long post I'm not quoting because it doesn't really say much (he admits he doesn't have very strong reads on anyone yet):

GeoLib quotes Robz morgrim-theory and says he was thinking about it too and agrees with it. He also notes he thinks Robz's accusation on O is "sort of OMGUS".

Ashersky too answers the "your reads on everyone"-question:

I can get on board with most of Jorbles's reads.  I'll mention where I differ, based on what little we have to go on so far.

Robz888: Still get the slightly scummy vibe, for previously mentioned issues.  Then again, reading some of his non-game posts on d.fs make me think maybe it's just his writing style.  Also, unvote.

I don't see an O/Morgrim duo at the moment, and Robz toss there could be indicative.  O reads slightly scummy, though, just based on forcefulness.  Morgrim is just crazy, so I think it's just too difficult to nail down his true intent.

Agree on Frisk, Geolib, and Cuzz for now, all strike me as good folk.  Jorbles reads non-scum for now. 

I think Eevee is the one flying under the radar, which is always suspect.  What does pointing the FOS do?  Anything?

I like how ashersky realized the same thing I'm realizing more and more, most of our "reads" come from writing styles, and that we should be looking at actions rather than words (if for nothing else, at least for volume purposes ).

O drops the bomb:

for the record Robz reaction to the case has made me so convinced that I will not be voting for any non-robz candidate for lynch for, idk, the rest of the game?

until
a) Robz dies
b) Robz is cleared by a cop/other scum is found by a cop
c) I die.

Suffices to say O really believes in his case? This is just crazy certainty for day 1.  Actually, one of the reasons I think Robz is maybe a good lynch is that I think O is a smart guy, he wouldn't probably dare to do this as scum and he is.. just so certain. But  onwards ->

GeoLib on various topics, nothing huge here just some thoughts from him:

As I've said before, I agree with Robz that this seems like Morgrim playing Morgrim, but then again I don't have any direct experience with Morgrim in the past, so I'd be interested to hear other veteran's take. Is this Morgrim-as-usual or something else? Frisk?

Looks like Eevee already gave his opinion:

Everyone, I don't think Morgrim is scum. Too inconsistent for that, he is just having fun with us (just like O was with his "force myself to L-1"-plan).

Robz's defense does seem scummy, but O's declaration that he won't vote for anyone else seems a little ridiculous. How on earth can you be so sure? I'd buy a Robz scum, but I'd also buy a frustrated Robz VT. The scum-pair hunting was pretty ridiculous though... What's the probability of finding that. 1 in 36? At this point I wouldn't be adverse to a Robz lynch, but I'm not sold.

I was going to agree with Ashersky on Eevee "flying under the radar," but then I actually reread some of his posts and I think he's been contributing well though staying back a bit. Maybe this is scummy or maybe he's just letting newbies have a chance (if it's the latter, thanks!)

As for Fos, I think I'm the only one who's used it so far (other than the Fos on Galzria... ). I think it can be useful just to indicate you suspect someone when people are skimming. So me putting FoS makes it easier for someone to go "Aha! This is where GeoLib say Morgrim seems suspicious." Probably not that useful, but acronyms are fun!

Cliffs: seconds the feeling of me staying back but in the end thinks I haven't really. Finds both O and Robz suspect, but acknowledges they might be town too. Hedgy/not saying much.

Jorbles says he doesn't think Eevee flies under the radar, but is worried it might just mean that it's working.

Cuzz votes Robz, explains his reasons and wants the town to hurry up a bit:

Talk is good, but eventually we do have to put some votes in. Right now I feel comfortable voting and I Vote: Robz again (votes => pressure => good, right Eevee?).

O has listed some good reasons. A few more:

Robz basically behaved almost exactly as Morgrim did with his "the looks on your faces" comment. Not a self-vote exactly, but still. Robz demanded a policy lynch on Morgrim for similar behavior.

He suggested lynching based on experience. I just have a hard time imagining a townie really supporting this idea.

Both his accusations and defensive statements seem way over the top to me. More subjective, sure, but still. I'm just getting a real scummy vibe.

Pile the votes on or don't, either way I just want to get some serious discussion going on this. Otherwise we'll be in the exact same place at the deadline.

Robz clarifies he isn't voting morgrim for policy reasons, and explains his case on him. Also makes a comment about MVII which I believe to be flat out incorrect:

Robz basically behaved almost exactly as Morgrim did with his "the looks on your faces" comment. Not a self-vote exactly, but still. Robz demanded a policy lynch on Morgrim for similar behavior.

He suggested lynching based on experience. I just have a hard time imagining a townie really supporting this idea.

You misunderstand why I am voting for Morgrim. I am not voting him for policy reasons. Policy reasons are also valid against Morgrim, but I am voting him because he is trying to feign his usual townie craziness. He is in fact acting substantially MORE crazy than usual. So crazy, it's staged. He basically did the two most anti-town things he could do, and he did them immediately in his first vote. It's over the top crazy, because he's trying ACT crazy. He thought me, maybe Frisk, O and Eevee would overlook him for that reason. This is why I am voting for him. I believe he is scum. O's strange rescue of him has also made O suspicious to me.

As to lynching based on experience, in MVII, I feel like a big part of the problem was that the first 3 deaths (lynches and Nkills) were the 3 smartest and most experienced players. Didn't give the town much of a chance.

Frisk posts, saying he has finally catched up, and stating his take on various things in a post longer than the Bible:

Main points are in the first chapters of the post, where he expresses frustration on Morgrim's behavior, says Robz is scummy for pursuing morgrim lynch this early and places his vote on Robz.

Shortly after, GeoLib posts saying he "basically agrees with everything Frisk just said".

Robz is now at L-2. Morgrim posts "I'm not gonna put Robz at L-1, though I'd love to.", and when O asks whats the reason for this (with a sad smiley), Morgrim answers by voting Robz, putting him at L-1.

Robz giving us last words:

Anyway, if these are my last words, you all know what I think about Morgrim and O. Frisk and Eevee have disappointed me. Watch out for the newbies particularly the ones who voted me so quickly, Cuzz and ashersky. Jorbles and GeoLib seem less scummy, so they're probably the mafia, for all I know.

Ashersky asks me of my thoughts on hammering Robz and I answer:

I would ask, Eevee, for your argument for and against you casting the hammer vote on Robz, if I may.

For:
Claimed VT, nonexistent risk of lynching a town power role
Has played somewhat scummy (YMMV)
My gut isnt screaming "HE IS TOWN" when I read his defense
If we let him live, we will likely be facing the same dilemma tomorrow as some of us (hint: O) will try to push his lynch again. He could be investigated though, if we have a cop. Also scum wont kill him at night, and either way this is an informational wagon.

Against:
Could be a real asset to town (if town)
The scumminess is actually nothing concrete (but then againt, from a robz-level player it never is day 1)


I definitely thinking no one should rush to hammer him, no matter how good of a lynch you think he would be. We are in no hurry, maybe someone slips and gives us a stronger scum (or town) read, talking is generally very good for town. If the conversation dies, then I dont mind an early hammer. Myself.. I will do it maybe, I dont have any better candidates yet at least. But I definitely don't agree with O's level of certainty, the case is good but it's not the slam dunk he makes it to be. Whether scum O would be bold enough to go after Robz with such certainty is just a huge wifom, so I dont think Robz flipping town would actually even reflect that badly on O. If Robz is mafia, O is 99% town though.

And then I posted the first half of this summary.

I found the first half more interesting, mainly because it had more voting happening. Compiling these summaries has really convinced me of the importance of voting. Both me and Frisk are almost no reads, because we haven't really backed our posts with voting (okay Frisk has voted once, which actually might be ok for his low post count). I have played like this in every game, super careful of throwing my vote early. That will stop now, I see how very anti-town behavior it is. It's really quite shocking how much more information the flip will give on any of the active voters compared to guys like me who just state what they feel but never back it up with a vote.

This is the part where I'd show my new ways and vote for someone, but that someone would be Robz and that would be the hammer. And let it be said: I would do that if I didn't want us to continue talking still.

Robz: My gut indeed says you are probably town, but mafia VII really was a sick learning experience of me. My gut sucks. And the fact is, O has a real case on you. While I certainly don't agree with his confidence in it, the cold truth is your flip would be super informational for town. If you read the first half of my summary, you surely noticed how much it would tell us. And there is the fact the worse case is that you are a vanilla townie. And the fact that O, a smart guy, is sure you are town (and I don't think he would drive it that hard as scum, although I admit it's possible).

So.. I'm sorry buddy, I think I got to go against my gut here. Especially because I don't have any scum reads on anyone yet. I'm hoping to get them from your flip!

So if you are town, this really sucks for you personally.. but gotham needs this from you.

[Robz888]

What is O's case against me that is so great? Everyone keeps saying it's a great case, without actually restating it. He thinks Morgrim will definitely scumslip, which is not necessarily true, and he's certainly overconfident (and wrong, as you will soon see). But you're making him out to be some sort of genius. He's not. He's no better with his reads than other experienced players. Both him and Morgrim are acting like they expected to get by on their usual shtick, except I've played with them a lot and it doesn't look like their usual shtick to me. It looks like them trying to fake that.

I'm not at all convinced of my case, and I'm a little worried that the true mafia are just sitting back while we all destroy each other (sort of like MVII). But for now I can't ignore the giant scum read I have on Morgrim, who is additionally patently awful for the town.

What does my flip tell anyone? It will make O look terrible, but other that, not much.

[Eevee]

O's great on you is so great mainly because he believes in it so so much and is unlikely to be scum faking it (imo).
The benefits of your flip (exact quotes are in my summary, part one)
-If you flip scum, geo looks quite scummy too. If you flip town, geo looks a tad townier.
-If you flip scum, Cuzz has to be town.

Okay I only noted two things it seems, felt there were more. The hammer (who does it, who doesn't do it) might give us more too.

Still, it seems better than going for a new target completely, possibly outing our power roles in the process. Although you do have me almost convinced of your innocence..  Surely you must understand why I'd rather lynch for logical reasons than listen to my gut at this point?

[Robz888]

Of course, but I think that my case against morgrim is better than o's case against me.

[Eevee]

Of course, but I think that my case against morgrim is better than o's case against me.

Morgrim lynches are always less informational, despite everything, it's just always bit of a cop-out. And I don't agree with your assessment of his behavior.

[Eevee]

Btw Robz, as I think it's quite possible you are town, I think you should absolutely at least share all your reads before you die. It's very unfortunate we are in this situation, but I just see no reasonable way out. I dont think it's morgrim at least. Actually..
Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum, but I'm still not sure if Robz is just the better lynch for us.

And I do realize I'm taking a pretty big role here by even suggesting another wagon, but I got to get this off my mind.

[ashersky]

Still, it seems better than going for a new target completely, possibly outing our power roles in the process. Although you do have me almost convinced of your innocence..  Surely you must understand why I'd rather lynch for logical reasons than listen to my gut at this point?

Guess that didn't quite work out.  And sorry about the gender confusion before.

Thanks for the recap posts, I do think they are informative, and will be even more so on D2.  You make a good case for the lynching of Robz, but I have to think we still have time to get a better read on others.  I have a vote available, but I'm not comfortable being the hammer.

We haven't heard from Frisk in awhile, I noticed.  Wonder what he's up to.

[GeoLib]

We haven't heard from Frisk in awhile, I noticed.  Wonder what he's up to.

I'm surprised you chose to call out Frisk. He posted about 10 hours ago, whereas O and Morgrim have both been silent for about 28...

I guess we have to resign ourselves to Morgrim just being sort of strange (unless we lynch him), but I'm surprised O hasn't said anything in a while, especially since he's the one who's been leading the charge against Robz.

O care to recap or add to your argument for a Robz lynch? Something other than "OMG guys I'm so absolutely totally certain!! Obvscum! Why haven't you lynched him yet?!" would be ideal.



I was about to ask Ashersky why he didn't respond to Eevee's vote for him, but I realized that it didn't really seem like Eevee presented a case other than:

Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum

Care to explain your vote, Eevee? I know that there's important information in your summary posts, but could you write a post with just the scum-ashersky case please?



I also wanted to mention your point that:

People look for patterns that have nothing to do with alignments but rather personalities and posting styles.

I think this is a really important consideration. I've caught myself basing my reads on what I perceive to be people's personalities. I think this is why I at first agreed with ashersky that you seemed to be "flying under the radar." You just seemed so... congenial. Which gave me an implicit town read on you, and then I started thinking about why I read you as town, and was like, well maybe this is a clever scum move... Super WIFOM

I also find myself disagreeing with O partly because his certainty annoys me. I'd guess you guys have already picked up on this. It makes me want to oppose him just because he can't possibly be that certain. Of course I should be considering the logic of his arguments instead, but I find it hard to separate them from him... Damn...



One last thing, and then I'm going to bed:

I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, but you mention a couple times in your behemoth posts (primarily, the second one) that a post of mine is "hedgy" or "doesn't end up saying much" (something like that, anyway). I'm trying to explain as many of my thoughts as I can, but I don't think I'm ever going to come down on an issue with the certainty that some people (hint: O) exhibit. As I said, I think that sort of certainty is absurd coming from a townie. I'm sorry if it's annoying or unhelpful, but I'm not going to fake conviction. I don't think this is scummy though because I've still managed to open myself up to post-wagon analysis (something, you point out, that you and Frisk have not done). For example, despite my "hedginess," I'll come out looking pretty scummy if Robz flips scum although I wouldn't give a damn because we'd have lynched scum D1!! Anyway, that's all. Bedtime for me

[O]

GOD DAMNIT GUYS WHAT THE HELL

I wanted to actively lurk until

a) I got to L-1
b) Someone else got to L-1 and I could hammer in my first post.

That being said Morgrim is VT and Robz is scum

evidence:

---Redirecting to lynch by classes -> trying to lynch a "newbie". Anyone whose read MVII, which robz played in, knows that the concept that new players are worse is false

---Trying to lynch Morgrim the VT, when he knows in his heart of hearts Morgrim is infact a VT, and he knows policy-lynching Morgrim is never a good idea.

---Scum are more often going to vote for their scumbuddies in RVS than other random townies, and as Robz got a nice big RVS wagon probably someone voting for him was scum.

---Shut up and listen because Robz is scum. Kthx.


Vote: Robz the real scum lynch

This was the original case. I'll be back soon with his terrible response.

[ashersky]

We haven't heard from Frisk in awhile, I noticed.  Wonder what he's up to.

I'm surprised you chose to call out Frisk. He posted about 10 hours ago, whereas O and Morgrim have both been silent for about 28...

I called on Frisk because I feel like I've gotten a good read from him <i>when</i> he posts.  Morgrim is, well, you know...and O stated his lurker cause and concrete certainty on Robz which we're all aware and wary of.  So Frisk.

I was about to ask Ashersky why he didn't respond to Eevee's vote for him, but I realized that it didn't really seem like Eevee presented a case other than:

Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum

Care to explain your vote, Eevee? I know that there's important information in your summary posts, but could you write a post with just the scum-ashersky case please?

This.  I don't have a response to "bring chaos to the world" other than, well, chaos is bad.  Order strikes me as the way to go.

Also for the record, I'm of the opinion that geo is on the up-and-up, based on his posting so far.

[O]

I wouldn't even put it past Morgrim to be scum after all this.. but I think you are all being too hasty.

I agree that we're being hasty, but Jesus Christ, he gave away his role and self-voted, like, immediately. We can't keep excusing this behavior.

In truth, this is too crazy, even for Morgrim, so quickly out of the gate. It may be staged. If not, it is a long overdue policy lynch.

Fake anger

Hahaha. Okay. You're all in for a rude awakening.

fake mild amusement

[O]

Because this is the first game where I've thought the anti-town play was seriously out of hand. It's way more Morgrim, than you.

In MVII I assumed that I would be the first night kill unless I acted at least a little suspiciously, which was problematic for the town because of my PR. I was correct; if you check the mafia QT, they planned to kill me first night even before the game started, and in fact, they did so.

I'm not sure you've ever been nightkilled, certainly not night 1, so you don't have the same incentive to avoid that fate, as it isn't certain to befall you the way it was certain for me.
-------
attempting to establish a difference this time when there really isn't any

[O]

oh and when I get NKed sheep Geolib as my read after robz.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 1-9

Robz888 (4): O, Cuzz, Captain_Frisk, Morgrim7
Morgrim7 (2): Robz888, GeoLib
ashersky (1): Eevee

Not voting (2): Jorbles, ashersky

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Lynch deadline: Monday, August 27, at noon forum time (EDT)

[Cuzz]

Recent quotes from Eevee:

FoS does nothing. Just a way to show you suspect someone without actually casting a vote. I personally dont think it's very effective, votes build pressure which is good, fos is just too mild.

And then:

I have played like this in every game, super careful of throwing my vote early. That will stop now, I see how very anti-town behavior it is. It's really quite shocking how much more information the flip will give on any of the active voters compared to guys like me who just state what they feel but never back it up with a vote.

This is the part where I'd show my new ways and vote for someone, but that someone would be Robz and that would be the hammer. And let it be said: I would do that if I didn't want us to continue talking still.

Robz: My gut indeed says you are probably town, but mafia VII really was a sick learning experience of me. My gut sucks. And the fact is, O has a real case on you. While I certainly don't agree with his confidence in it, the cold truth is your flip would be super informational for town. If you read the first half of my summary, you surely noticed how much it would tell us. And there is the fact the worse case is that you are a vanilla townie. And the fact that O, a smart guy, is sure you are town (and I don't think he would drive it that hard as scum, although I admit it's possible).

So.. I'm sorry buddy, I think I got to go against my gut here. Especially because I don't have any scum reads on anyone yet. I'm hoping to get them from your flip!

So if you are town, this really sucks for you personally.. but gotham needs this from you.

Next:

Still, it seems better than going for a new target completely, possibly outing our power roles in the process. Although you do have me almost convinced of your innocence..  Surely you must understand why I'd rather lynch for logical reasons than listen to my gut at this point?

And finally:

Btw Robz, as I think it's quite possible you are town, I think you should absolutely at least share all your reads before you die. It's very unfortunate we are in this situation, but I just see no reasonable way out. I dont think it's morgrim at least. Actually..
Vote: ashersky, bring chaos to the world. I think ashersky is more likely than robz to be scum, but I'm still not sure if Robz is just the better lynch for us.

And I do realize I'm taking a pretty big role here by even suggesting another wagon, but I got to get this off my mind.

Eevee claims FOS is ineffective, and people should be voting. Eevee then claims that his style is always to be super careful and not throw his vote in early. Eevee then says such cautious behavior will stop now, and backs it up by not voting in that post, and putting a FOS on Robz without hammering. Eevee says his gut is that Robz is town, but has to go against his gut, but again, does nothing.

Next Eevee warns against a new target in the name of town unity, and follows this up by breaking his indecisiveness and finally voting... for ashersky. Who is "more likely than robz to be scum," despite having said nothing of the sort in either of the two novels he posted yesterday.

Can someone help me out with the count of how many times he has contradicted himself here? I've lost track. Eevee's long analysis has been helpful, but honestly, to me all of this looks truly terrible for Eevee. He seems too smart to not realize that he's being egregiously inconsistent, so maybe it's on purpose. Does he want us to pull the suspicion onto him to protect Robz? Of course he said he would be voting Robz if it wouldn't be the hammer, but talk is cheap. I know it's hard enough to find one scum on D1, but I think an Eevee/Robz duo is not out of the question.

Can someone please hammer so we can get some real information before the mafia have chance to screw with us more?