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Author Topic: Tournement / Competition?  (Read 10646 times)

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cherdano

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2011, 04:28:08 pm »
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Tournament? I thought the main discussion would be about the prizes! I would suggest:

Concubine: +1 Card, +1 Action. Trash a card, and gain a card costing exactly one 1$ more than the trashed card, and put it in your hand.
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Davio

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2011, 02:13:16 am »
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Well, this explanation is way better than the one on Wikipedia.  ;D

I get it now, thanks.

Edit: I don't know whether an even number of players is needed. If so I will participate / sit out depending on the number of players.
If it is odd, I'll join in. If it is already even, I'll sit out.

There is a "bye" system to handle an odd number of players if people are fine with this.  When using byes, the currently lowest ranked player in the tournament who has yet to receive a bye in this tournament (for the first game this can be decided randomly or using Isotropic ranking, as Agrisios has suggested) sits out for a round and plays no one, but receives a full win point (i.e. the number of points someone would receive for willing).

If a loss is worth 0 points and a win is worth 1 point, we have to decide how many points a tie is worth; the two standard choices are 1/3 (used in Magic: The Gathering and in group rounds of some association football tournaments) and 1/2 (used in chess).
Ties can be delibirately chosen by both players instead of happening "by accident" since both players can keep score. This makes a tie something more of a strategic choice, hence I propose 1/2.

I don't know what the reasoning is behind Magic's 1/3, but I feel the chess scores are better here.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2011, 03:40:39 am »
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I assume the choice of 1/3 has the same reasoning as football's choice of 1 for a tie where wins are worth 3 points.
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DStu

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2011, 03:58:00 am »
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I assume the choice of 1/3 has the same reasoning as football's choice of 1 for a tie where wins are worth 3 points.

Don't know how it is in Magic, but I would say the situation in Dominion is a different one than in football. In football, you want to give both teams the motivation to play more risky in the end, as with 1/2 points for a tie it is likely that at the 70. minutes both teams settle for it, because they don't want to risk loosing as much as they can win. So the situation is that the game state already IS a tie, and you want to motivate the players to move away from it, to get a little less 0:0 games where nobody does anything for the second half of the second half.

In Dominion, only one player can go for a tie, and that's the second player who usually is (and would even with full points for a tie) in disadvantage. And the game state usually is not a tie, but the second player is behind and strategically can end the game in a tie, when he would, with high probability, have lost in the game in the next turn if he choose to prolong the game.
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Davio

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2011, 04:03:14 am »
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We could always go 5/12 which is in between of those two. :)

I think we have to decide whether a tie is a good and respectable result.

Football is a spectator sport and it's more fun to see both teams really go for the win since they get triple the points, not just double. A lot of times in football, both teams are disappointed with a tie, since it helps neither.

Chess is not as flamboyant and if a player makes a mistake early on, but still manages to scramble for a tie, I think he has done very well.

I feel Dominion is more closely related to the chess instead of the football example, therefore I would propose 1/2 for a tie.


The rules say it all: "...rejoice in shared victory!" So, rejoice!
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rspeer

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2011, 04:14:02 am »
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Yes, I agree with 1/2. Otherwise it would be "<you> and <opponent> lament their shared victory!"

I'd be interested in this tournament.
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sherwinpr

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2011, 12:13:45 pm »
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Although I hadn't thought about it as much when I posed the 1/3 or 1/2 question, in light of what everyone has said, I think 1/2 makes more sense for Dominion.  Of course, if we want to use integer-valued scores, we can let losses be worth 0, ties be worth 1, and wins be worth 2.

We can even make losses worth 1, ties worth 2, and wins worth 3; this way if someone can't make a game, rather than disqualifying them, they still may be able to place, while we still reward players for participation and playing every game.

It may also be worthwhile to have the top 4 (or 2 or 8, but I think 4 sounds about right) players of the Swiss tournament to play in a knockout tournament (maybe scheduled for a different day).  We could even use best 3 of 5 for that round, but maybe I'm overcomplicating things.
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rspeer

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2011, 01:13:09 pm »
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1 for a loss, 2 for a draw, 3 for a win: Sounds good.

Just make sure not to schedule people for so many games that it becomes like BGGDL, which always struck me as more like a scavenger hunt for opponents to play than a tournament.
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mikeg542

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2011, 08:49:31 pm »
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I would be very much willing to run this. I would also be very willing to create software to pair up for each round and post standings. Here is how I would think it should be run:

I definitely think that it should be a one continuous tournament instead of spreading it out. Almost every sort of tournament that I've seen spread out had 50%+ of the people just disappear after a round or two and make it miserable for anyone who has lost a round or two.

As well, I feel that either the tournament organizer should give a group their kingdom cards or every group in the round is playing the same ones, so that people don't 'accidentally' decline with cards they aren't the best with. This should be testing how good each player is with any sort of group.

I personally like 3 player the best of any player number for dominion, but I understand that takes much longer to run, so I won't push it (however, this makes it possible to have a top 6 than top 2).

For anyone who has played mtg before, it should be run as a swiss tournament (up to 8 players - 3 rounds,  up to 16 players - 4,  up to 32- 5. 33+ - 6 rounds).

I think points should be: winner gets 3, ties get 2, losses get 1. Tie breaks in case of same score should be based on opponent game win percentage. Every round, everyone is paired with someone with the same (or as close as possible) record as them, as long as they haven't played before. Since no round should take longer than 20mins, even with 64 people it would be over in 2 hours.

When would people, if at all, be interested? and thoughts?
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rspeer

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2011, 06:20:04 am »
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I think points should be: winner gets 3, ties get 2, losses get 1. Tie breaks in case of same score should be based on opponent game win percentage. Every round, everyone is paired with someone with the same (or as close as possible) record as them, as long as they haven't played before. Since no round should take longer than 20mins, even with 64 people it would be over in 2 hours.

When would people, if at all, be interested? and thoughts?

What happens if a game does take longer than 20 minutes? Some Dominion games do. I think the time you've allowed to organize the next round is not just too short, but actually negative.
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mikeg542

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Re: Tournement / Competition?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2011, 09:38:23 am »
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Setting up each round would take 30 seconds - 1 minute, tops. I would say that the average round wouldn't be much more than 20 minutes if at all. The final time was a estimation.
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