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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards  (Read 27921 times)

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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2012, 02:54:07 pm »
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Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2012, 02:55:25 pm »
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Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2012, 02:57:27 pm »
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Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2012, 03:04:54 pm »
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Alchemist: % gain 29.4% (with some heavy front-end bias because I used to treat alchemist as a must-buy)
.54 with, .14 without

Possession: ~40% gain, terrible effects with and without

meh...

you:
Alchemist % gain 49.4, -.46 with, .67 without

possession: 25% gain, good effect with and bad effect without.




If we were to follow the stats (which is highly questionable), you overbuy Alchemist and I don't just overbuy possession, I also suck with it in general.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 03:07:31 pm »
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Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.

I don't agree that Alchemist is worth it half the time at all. I can't remember the last time I bought Alchemist, although I'm sure I under buy it.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2012, 03:20:42 pm »
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If we were to follow the stats (which is highly questionable), you overbuy Alchemist and I don't just overbuy possession, I also suck with it in general.

You're misreading my Possession numbers, I have a negative Effect With and very strong Effect Without.  If anything, I should buy it even less. :P

The Alchemist effects are pretty minor, honestly.  While I'm defending it here, it's still a card I buy less than the general population, and as such it's not that common for me to go Alchemist but for my opponent to avoid it.  This means there are more mirror matches, and my win rate gets pushed closer to 1.00.  Also, my Alchemist habits have changed over time; I did overbuy it at first but then I underbought it for awhile, and have been picking it up slightly more often as of late.  That might have an effect, or maybe not.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 03:22:15 pm »
0

Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.

I don't agree that Alchemist is worth it half the time at all. I can't remember the last time I bought Alchemist, although I'm sure I under buy it.

Well, that's probably mostly the old engine/BM dichotomy again.  But, really, almost all the Alchemy cards are primarily engine cards.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2012, 03:41:20 pm »
0

Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.

I don't agree that Alchemist is worth it half the time at all. I can't remember the last time I bought Alchemist, although I'm sure I under buy it.

Well, that's probably mostly the old engine/BM dichotomy again.  But, really, almost all the Alchemy cards are primarily engine cards.

No I get that. And truly, these days I probably get Scrying Pool 80-90%% of the time. I get University probably 50-60% of the time. I get Golem/Possession/Apothecary probably 30-40%.

Alchemist? Maybe like 10-20%.
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2012, 03:43:07 pm »
0

Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.
Veto mode also makes possession a lot weaker. Its frequently vetoed unless its a huge trap, because many find those boards annoying.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2012, 04:05:09 pm »
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Alchemist is still overrated for me. Clearly I think possession is better (and yes, apothecary and university too)
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rinkworks

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2012, 04:53:08 pm »
+2

I wonder how much the ratings are influenced by Iso players, who get kingdoms with only 1-2 Potion cards a lot.  Sure, when Alchemist is the only Potion-cost card, you probably skip it unless the Alchemist stack is the best strategy.  Because getting a junk card in your deck isn't worth the occasional opportunity to buy a Lab.

But I play where if you have any Potion cards in the kingdom, you put out at least 3.  In that environment, Alchemist absolutely shines.  Because it's only worth buying so many Familiars, Universities, Transmutes, Possessions, and Golems.  There comes a point where you only even by Scrying Pools and Apothecaries so as not to waste a turn where you can't afford anything else.  But Alchemists remain a great addition to a deck no matter how many copies you already have.

This sounds like I'm talking about the "great sometimes vs. harmless all the time" dichotomy that people use to defend or denounce Pearl Diver.  But I'm not.  Alchemist is (basically) ALWAYS a great card to have in your deck -- the problem is the cost of getting it into your deck in the first place.

When you play with the 3+ Potion card rule, the cost of getting Alchemist into your deck is a lot lower, just because that Potion you buy to get them is more likely to be desirable for other cards as well.  It could be the case that Alchemists and Universities might not be worth buying a Potion for individually, but more than worth it together.  This is particularly true if Alchemist combos directly with something:  with Apothecary, so set up what the Alchemist draws, for example.  Golem is nice too, since Golem+Alchemists can make a useful makeshift Village.  Not that individual combos are any reason to boost a card in the rankings, since EVERY card has some sort of combo.  But if Alchemist is always out with at least two other Potion-cost cards, this happens a LOT more often than if you just pick kingdom cards randomly and thus usually just have one Potion card at a time.

So my experience with Alchemist is that it's a perfectly fine card.  I did think the original list overrated it a bit, but it's severely underrated here.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 04:59:33 pm by rinkworks »
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RisingJaguar

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 04:56:15 pm »
+2

I'm with chwhite that I think that alchemist is starting to get underrated now.  By that I mean it should be in the upper-echelon of the tightly grouped 5-8 area (so slightly better than Uni, not that big a deal). 

Aside from the two strong helpers of university (highway, watchtower), it often isn't a strong piece of an engine.  I mean an engine where its only +action is university often lacks the ability to really chain things together.  One, it is much harder to accumulate those +action (it is hard to buy than say a $3 village, probably helps to have a +buy) and two, it doesn't provide any other benefit other than the gain (so no +cards to help link cards together and no +$ like festival).   

What I am trying to get at is I believe that university wants some +actions (it by itself just sucks most of the time, usually you gain too many terminals OR the cost of the village is just silly), +buy (although probably not as much as alchemist), and strong cards you want to spam (like all engines). 

Alchemist wants all these cards too.  It probably wants +buy more but +cards and trashing less.  So the way I see it, alchemist is playable in a lot of the same situations university is, although I do agree university should be gained more often. 

But in these times, I find that alchemist is just stronger.  It leads to more power engines/mega-turns.  It provides a bit more consistency with being able to top deck the alchemist every time.  So even though university is gained a little more, alchemist is much more of a difference maker to edge it out. 

FWIW: http://councilroom.com/popular_buys?player=RisingJaguar
I gain alchemist 68% and have a + effect with. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 04:57:18 pm by RisingJaguar »
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jonts26

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2012, 06:34:44 pm »
0

I gain alchemist 61% of the time with positive effect with and without (which isn't worth a whole lot but hey, its something). I'm sure the gain % is skewed high from when I overrated it, but I still think it's a good pick up in 40-50% of boards. All you need is a +buy and something to do with huge hands. Barring those, a good attack which doesn't hurt an alchemist stack. Ghost ship is a really strong one here.
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Powerman

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2012, 07:59:30 pm »
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These are all so tough to rank just because of the fact that if they are the only Potion cost card, they are often ignored.  So how often to go for them is definitely part of the equation.  I look at the cards in tiers for Potions honestly:

Tier 1: (Buy on own) Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Vineyards, Familiar
Tier 2: (Buy for very certain board) University, Alchemist, Possession
Tier 3: (Buy IFF another Potion card is on board) Golem, Transmute, Philosopher's Stone

How you rank within the tiers is another issue, and some would put Golem in tier 2, I would not.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2012, 09:11:30 pm »
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Tier 3: (Buy IFF another Potion card is on board) Golem, Transmute, Philosopher's Stone

I would honestly almost buy PStone only if there are no other Potion cards on the board (barring Transmute which hardly counts).
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jonts26

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2012, 09:12:55 pm »
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Yeah, PStone is weird cause it's bad with most of the other potion cards. Familiar might be the best bet. Also Golem can work in a lot of decks with no other potion cards. Just remember to not open potion.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2012, 09:27:42 pm »
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It seems people are down on Alchemist because it's no good without +buy. But Scrying Pool and Vineyards need +buy too. And so do most other engine cards... The higher peak value of Vineyards and Scrying Pool make them better than Alchemist, but it's not like its impossible to find situations where you want to buy Alchemist.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2012, 11:34:59 pm »
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Also Golem can work in a lot of decks with no other potion cards. Just remember to not open potion.

Man, why couldn't you have mentioned that before this game?
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jonts26

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2012, 11:41:12 pm »
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Also Golem can work in a lot of decks with no other potion cards. Just remember to not open potion.

Man, why couldn't you have mentioned that before this game?

Haha. I remember that game. I was wondering why you opened potion. Odds of getting golem are low, and you don't want transmute in a golem deck.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 12:43:11 am »
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But I play where if you have any Potion cards in the kingdom, you put out at least 3.  In that environment, Alchemist absolutely shines.  Because it's only worth buying so many Familiars, Universities, Transmutes, Possessions, and Golems.  There comes a point where you only even by Scrying Pools and Apothecaries so as not to waste a turn where you can't afford anything else.  But Alchemists remain a great addition to a deck no matter how many copies you already have.

That's why I really don't like this "at leat 3 Potion cost card"-rule. The Potion cost cards are already strong if they are alone on the board.  Not always, but they have their times where they are very usefull. The only cards that suffer from not having more other Potion-cost cards more often are Golem and Transmute. But Alchemist is perfectly fine without other Potion cost cards in many sets, and in these sets it's a dominating card.
Once you have them clumping together, you can almost auto-buy the Potion.
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ftl

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2012, 06:58:16 pm »
+1

I've been meaning to respond to that, DStu, but I haven't had a chance to.

I think the Potion cards play very differently when you have more than one.

As you say,
Once you have them clumping together, you can almost auto-buy the Potion.

And it's true - the question of "Do I want a potion or not" often becomes trivial, with the answer being yes, you want a potion, far more often.

But it gets replaced with other strategic questions. First off, buying TWO potions suddenly becomes a viable option, if you want to get the potion-cost cards faster. It also makes mid-game buys have more thought to them. If you have 3p, 4p, or 5p, and there's only one Potion-cost card around, you're probably buying that Alchemist, because you have only one potion and you're building an alchemist stack.

Whereas, if there's, say, Vineyard, Alchemist, and Golem, suddenly there's different options. Late-game switch to vineyards, mid-game get either alchemists or golems perhaps depending on what other actions you've managed to pick up. It's less likely to be a rush for a single card, too; if there's both alchemist and Scrying Pool, either one can do for card draw, though depending on the board one might be slightly better than the other.

So yeah, I think if you have more potion-cost cards, you're more likely to auto-buy the potion. But there's other strategic considerations that crop up that wouldn't happen in a single-potion-card setup.

It's a different sort of game, but I don't think it's better or worse, just different. Both seem reasonably fun (I try to play a mix of both :) )
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:03:22 pm by ftl »
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zahlman

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2012, 10:53:08 pm »
0

Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.

I don't agree that Alchemist is worth it half the time at all. I can't remember the last time I bought Alchemist, although I'm sure I under buy it.

What factors do y'all consider when deciding whether to go for Alchemist?
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RisingJaguar

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: Potion cost cards
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2012, 11:05:21 pm »
0

Erm.. Possession is still a must buy on like 25% of boards, and a possible buy on another 15%. It's no great shakes but clearly outclasses Alchemist/Golem.

It's mostly just mechanic-hatred that has people voting it so low.

Nah, it's the outrageously high cost.  Possession is worth buying no more than half as often as Alchemist, and the ratio is not much better with Golem.

I might have bought alchemist maybe once in the past 15 games it appeared in.

Wow.  I'd say that Alchemist is worth it almost exactly half the time.

I don't agree that Alchemist is worth it half the time at all. I can't remember the last time I bought Alchemist, although I'm sure I under buy it.

What factors do y'all consider when deciding whether to go for Alchemist?
Generally speaking, a similar checklist you have for building an engine. 

The main differences between this and a normal engine is that an alchemist engine has more of a need for +buy.  Something as simple as woodcutter can do because you're looking to one, gain alchemist and an engine piece. Two, generate a mega turn, which +buys usually facilitate (maybe HoP but you get the point). 

A little more fragile to hand reducing attacks for obvious reasons, although if the alternative to alchemist is a simple BM strategy, it isn't as big a downfall as it will not be played as often. 

A lot of other engine checklists are slightly altered, but the last big one is how will this same engine do without alchemist.  If there is a reliable method to draw your deck out without alchemist or draw decent portions of your deck out, then alchemist isn't worth getting the potion and such. 

Just remember, Alchemist BM-loses to a lot of things.  So just simply create a list of advantages of building an alchemist chain (like coppersmith gets a benefit as an obvious example).  I suggest trying this out a couple times and you can gauge by how much you win/lose to your opponent. 
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