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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund  (Read 5347 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« on: August 11, 2012, 03:43:48 pm »
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Trust Fund (5)
Treasure
$2
-----
When you discard this from play, +1 card per unused buy you have.



  • Spend wisely and your fund can bring you greater profits!
  • I cost this at 5 because the potential abuse seemed that much better than a plain old Silver. I'd look to push it to 6 if that gets obscenely good.
  • Another possible way to weaken it is to just draw 1 card for having any unused buys rather than 1 per. The current card might be too strong with something like Market chains, so it's an option I'm considering. I'd possibly cost it down to 4 at that point.
  • My friend and I are gearing up to make a set. We're thinking of theming it around buys. It's a pretty obvious bit of design space to tackle, but it's a good starting point for a first, big dive into Dominion set creation.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 03:51:53 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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Morgrim7

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 07:51:17 pm »
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Most of the time this isn't worth it...there has to be +buy, and a lot of it, to make this card worthwhile. And then it is really good.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 08:16:12 pm »
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You need to rephrase it to work as intended.  As is, it is ambiguous what would happen.  I believe a correct interpretation is:

- Discard Trust Fund and other cards in play.
- Draw 1 card per unused buy.
- Discard unplayed hand cards, including the newly drawn card.
- Draw 5 new cards.

A way to reword it is:

In your clean-up phase, draw 1 extra card for each unused buy you have.



This card is too good when there is spammable +Buy (Worker's Village, Hamlet, Market sort of) and too weak if there isn't any +Buy.  The fix I would suggest is adding +Buy to this card directly, and using the variant you proposed of "if you have any unused buys, draw 1 extra card."
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FishingVillage

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2012, 08:34:05 pm »
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Uh... does the card bonus stack for each Trust Fund in play? So I play 3 Trust Funds and don't buy anything... is the intent that I now get 3 extra cards during the clean-up phase, because I have 1 unused Buy left and the 3 Trust Funds are each triggered off of that?

Also, like eHalcyon said, order of operations is important to keep track of here. Outpost has wordage that can be useful for you (it'll look like what eHalcyon's proposed).
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jonts26

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 08:37:03 pm »
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So these are pretty stackable since each would give you a plus card, especially if you put a buy on them. I guess they have good competition at the $5 level. But how about an alternative. Make it cost $3 and give +$1 and a buy. Now you can get more of them more easily, but .... how many copper do you really want?
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 08:42:22 pm »
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You need to rephrase it to work as intended.  As is, it is ambiguous what would happen.  I believe a correct interpretation is:

- Discard Trust Fund and other cards in play.
- Draw 1 card per unused buy.
- Discard unplayed hand cards, including the newly drawn card.
- Draw 5 new cards.

A way to reword it is:

In your clean-up phase, draw 1 extra card for each unused buy you have.

The rules seem rather clear about everything from play and your hand being discarded at the same time. I spent some time reading over the handbook before making it. If there was some confusion about the way to play it, I'd adjust the wording, but I can't believer there'd be much.

This card is too good when there is spammable +Buy (Worker's Village, Hamlet, Market sort of) and too weak if there isn't any +Buy.  The fix I would suggest is adding +Buy to this card directly, and using the variant you proposed of "if you have any unused buys, draw 1 extra card."

I considered adding +1 Buy. I wanted to try a card that didn't need to feed off of itself in that way. There's room for that sort of design; it might not be here, though. I do like the single draw idea more after some consideration (cause I ALWAYS forget about stacking).

eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 08:51:11 pm »
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Yeah, I would suggest following as close to the wording on Outpost as possible.

The thing is, the card is almost entirely useless unless there is +Buy on the board.  Are there any official cards that are useless unless something else is present?  Reaction cards have some function that may be useful even in the absence of Attacks.  Even Scout, as terrible it is, can clear VP off the top of your deck. 

Without +Buy, this is just an expensive Silver.

jonts' idea is pretty neat too.




On a completely different note, Trust Fund is too modern-sounding a name. :P
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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 09:26:47 pm »
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Yeah, I would suggest following as close to the wording on Outpost as possible.

The thing is, the card is almost entirely useless unless there is +Buy on the board.  Are there any official cards that are useless unless something else is present?  Reaction cards have some function that may be useful even in the absence of Attacks.  Even Scout, as terrible it is, can clear VP off the top of your deck. 
if that's your criteria, this is still a silver with no +buy present. and it can be useful with TfB cards to have the higher cost there. on a board with neither +buys nor TfB, it approaches uselessness over silver pretty quickly unless you expect to have turns where you have at least $2 but will not buy anything.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 12:32:53 am »
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With the commentary and thinking about it a bit (and noting for stacking), I'm gonna start the testing from the following point:

Trust Fund (5)
Treasure
$2
+1 Buy
-----
During this turn's Clean-up phase, if you have any unused buys: +1 Card.

Sticking with Outpost's exact wording isn't the better approach, but it's good enough inspiration.

Side-question: Do you think this would be more interesting as Treasure or as an Action?

razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 01:19:09 am »
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Side-question: Do you think this would be more interesting as Treasure or as an Action?
Action Treasure
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 01:44:11 pm »
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The thing is, the card is almost entirely useless unless there is +Buy on the board.  Are there any official cards that are useless unless something else is present?  Reaction cards have some function that may be useful even in the absence of Attacks.  Even Scout, as terrible it is, can clear VP off the top of your deck. 

Without +Buy, this is just an expensive Silver.
You could just not buy anything? You get one buy per turn every game, after all.

Also, I think people will be surprised how good just a silver with a buy at $5 is, disregarding other special abilities.
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zahlman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 01:46:56 pm »
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You could just not buy anything? You get one buy per turn every game, after all.

Also, I think people will be surprised how good just a silver with a buy at $5 is, disregarding other special abilities.

Paying $5 for something in Treasure form that I usually ignore at $3 in Action form? Yes, I'd be surprised. BM strategies certainly don't benefit, although it can't hurt.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 07:12:51 pm »
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The thing is, the card is almost entirely useless unless there is +Buy on the board.  Are there any official cards that are useless unless something else is present?  Reaction cards have some function that may be useful even in the absence of Attacks.  Even Scout, as terrible it is, can clear VP off the top of your deck. 

Without +Buy, this is just an expensive Silver.
You could just not buy anything? You get one buy per turn every game, after all.

Also, I think people will be surprised how good just a silver with a buy at $5 is, disregarding other special abilities.

Except that you would get very little benefit from forgoing your single buy.  Tactician is sort of like giving up your buy and you will get +5 cards next turn.  To match that without any +buy, you need 5 of these in play when you give up your single buy, and then you get all those cards at once, which means Militia, GS, Goons, Minion, Margrave all completely ruin your day.  Plus, if you had that many Silver-equivalents in play, you really should be buying something, no?
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 01:43:31 pm »
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You could just not buy anything? You get one buy per turn every game, after all.

Also, I think people will be surprised how good just a silver with a buy at $5 is, disregarding other special abilities.

Paying $5 for something in Treasure form that I usually ignore at $3 in Action form? Yes, I'd be surprised. BM strategies certainly don't benefit, although it can't hurt.

Treasures aren't terminal, though.  If Woodcutter had +1 Action on it, you'd buy it a lot more.  That said, Festival is a Woodcutter with +2 Actions, so I wouldn't want to see a Woodcutter-as-Treasure for $5 unless it had something else going for it -- such as the extra cards for next turn.  Those two things would seem to balance out, making $5 about right.

But I don't think so.  A single such card is probably balanced at $5, but let's say you rushed the pile and spammed these.  Let's say you play five in a turn.  You probably want the first +Buy.  Maybe you'd even use the second, but probably you've got 4 extra Buys you don't even need.  It's therefore no great sacrifice not to use them and instead just draw 9 cards for your next turn.  Wouldn't be too hard to set up a deck that was consistently getting extra cards and all the +Buy you need.  That's a whole lot stronger than Festival, which only gives you +Actions you don't need if you spam them; and Caravan, which doesn't give you any money or buys; and Tactician, which requires careful deck-building and work to make it fire more than every other turn, if that.

But this is easy to set up.  The problem is that +Buys aren't as valuable as non-terminal +Cards.  In some decks, one +Buy can be as valuable, and once in a while you can use extras.  But the value of +Buy in general is a lot weaker than non-terminal +Card -- and rapidly gets weaker still as they stack, whereas non-terminal +Cards remain valuable.

So the trade-off you're shooting for -- offering +Buy that can be traded in for an extra card next turn -- isn't much of a trade-off.  You almost always want to use it for the extra card, and if you stack them it's basically a certainty.

The original version of the card, which lacks its own +Buy, is less problematic, because it's not a stacking problem every time it's only on the table, just when Worker's Village or Market or equivalent are on the table with it.  In those cases, you can still get a powerful, draw-lots-every-turn deck going, but it takes more work (rushing two piles instead of one) and strategy (spying the combo and building it up in the right proportions), so that's a lot more acceptable.  The downside is, it's probably nothing better than a Silver basically all the time.  Where it isn't -- when you just buy nothing and thereby activate the next-turn draw -- you've wasted the $2 it gave you, so the card still stinks:  might as well be a Caravan without the this-turn +1 Card in those cases.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 05:45:15 pm »
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Would you think making this a terminal action instead would aid in curbing its power? In this version, specifically:

Trust Fund (5)
Action
+$2
+1 Buy
-----
During this turn's Clean-up phase, if you have any unused buys: +1 Card.

O

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 05:57:17 pm »
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With no +Buys, this is still a strictly better than silver, because you can buy nothing (which has certain uses, IE endgame play for the last province).

So I think it's fine at 5$ with no +buy.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 06:21:15 pm »
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How can it be strictly better if Silver costs 3 and this costs 5? That's not what strictly better means!

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 06:22:30 pm »
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How can it be strictly better if Silver costs 3 and this costs 5? That's not what strictly better means!

Ignoring cost. As in, Gold is strictly better than silver.

Yes there are edge cases, but for the purposes of dominion we ignore them.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 08:41:25 pm »
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How can it be strictly better if Silver costs 3 and this costs 5? That's not what strictly better means!

Ignoring cost. As in, Gold is strictly better than silver.

Yes there are edge cases, but for the purposes of dominion we ignore them.

I've never heard "strictly better" used in this sense, but fair enough.

O

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Re: Clasic_Cards #25 - Trust Fund
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2012, 01:53:13 am »
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How can it be strictly better if Silver costs 3 and this costs 5? That's not what strictly better means!

Ignoring cost. As in, Gold is strictly better than silver.

Yes there are edge cases, but for the purposes of dominion we ignore them.

I've never heard "strictly better" used in this sense, but fair enough.

People use it with reference to say, stash and royal seal, other 5$ silvers  ;)
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