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Author Topic: Official Version Launching 8/16?  (Read 78593 times)

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blueblimp

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #250 on: August 17, 2012, 09:09:16 pm »
0

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #251 on: August 17, 2012, 10:07:32 pm »
+1

The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...

blueblimp

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #252 on: August 17, 2012, 10:21:14 pm »
0

The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...
Fair enough, I just see enough "iPad ::)"-type comments that I read more into your post than was there.

The thing is that optimizing for the iPad doesn't mean being platform-exclusive. The real question is whether the same client codebase should be targeting every platform, or whether each targeted platform should receive separate development. FunSockets has apparently based their entire business around developing in HTML5 to hit every platform at once (which is bold and likely why they got funding), but it's really not clear that HTML5 is up to the task yet, especially on mobile devices.

The difference between the Goko-on-desktop situation and the Goko-on-mobile situation is that, once the launch and security problems are worked out, Goko on desktop will be pretty good. (Not quite as good as isotropic, true, but a totally reasonable implementation.) On the other hand, Goko-on-mobile was reportedly quite a bit less playable in the beta, and there are fundamental problems that can't be easily fixed--offline play, for example, will take a ton of work given that they apparently weren't planning to support it.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #253 on: August 17, 2012, 10:49:50 pm »
0

The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...
Fair enough, I just see enough "iPad ::)"-type comments that I read more into your post than was there.

The thing is that optimizing for the iPad doesn't mean being platform-exclusive. The real question is whether the same client codebase should be targeting every platform, or whether each targeted platform should receive separate development. FunSockets has apparently based their entire business around developing in HTML5 to hit every platform at once (which is bold and likely why they got funding), but it's really not clear that HTML5 is up to the task yet, especially on mobile devices.

The difference between the Goko-on-desktop situation and the Goko-on-mobile situation is that, once the launch and security problems are worked out, Goko on desktop will be pretty good. (Not quite as good as isotropic, true, but a totally reasonable implementation.) On the other hand, Goko-on-mobile was reportedly quite a bit less playable in the beta, and there are fundamental problems that can't be easily fixed--offline play, for example, will take a ton of work given that they apparently weren't planning to support it.

Two things: One, you have a lot more optimism than I do. It seems to me that they know how to code some stuff, but you know, I know how to code some stuff, and I would never ever try to write a platform* like they are....

Second, I guess the real thing is you are trying to make this like, apples-to-apples comparison, right? But then you start talking about offline play, which is something you... don't get in a browser. So really you want something different. Not that there's really anything wrong with wanting that, but the thing I don't understand is why there is this presumption that you are expecting to get it. Like, you start out saying, oh, it can all be the same, but by the end of your paragraph, you're back to looking for me-specific things. Which again, there's nothing wrong with wanting that. But at the same time, if you don't get it... okay, you didn't get it. They didn't choose to go that route. Deal with it?
Like, no, I agree with you, in a fantasy-land, you would have all kinds of nice niche features that fully show off the capabilities of every possible kind of platform. Like, man, I can have it all gussied up to work just swell on Windows 3.11, and you can have it work just perfectly for the Macintosh II, and my friend has it running nice on his Commodore 64, Billy has it running on his iPhone, Joe has it on his Android phone, Bob has it going on his windows 8 device, Cindy Lou Who can play it on her candy-canes, whatever. That would be sweet, there's no denying. But it's also unfeasible. So, I guess what it comes down to is, you accept they can't make it perfect for everything, why do you think they should, from *their* perspective, put the effort in to make it perfect for your platform? Because it seems to me, making it just good everywhere and perfect nowhere would be a reasonable thing (or maybe it's impossible to design something that way, and we are seeing that by this spectacular failure; but at least you could see the motivation anyway). And then really, where is the motivation to tailor it for ANY specific kind of platform, because you as a customer are going to be pretty upset if they charge you extra for that platform customisation, but really, it's not like that is free.

Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.


*hey company that wants to hire me to write a platform for you after sending me through a couple years of schooling - I will take that offer ;)

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #254 on: August 17, 2012, 11:22:09 pm »
+3

@WW: Regarding Offline Mode - I think that most of us agree - offline mode is not particularly useful.

Quote
Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.

But you know what?  Le Havre is another one of my favorite games.  I have it on my ipad.  I play it offline.  When I wasn't schooling Yuma in Mafia V from the back of a bus on my iphone, I was playing Le Havre against 2 AIs.  It wasn't online because i don't have the fancy 3g ipad (mainly because I think that double paying for 2 data streams when I can only use 1 is a crock of shit)

It's not a very good AI.  I have never lost - regardless of difficulty.  However - it does let me have the joy of building my little le havre engine - and the stress of figuring out how to maximize my VP and get rid of all my loans by the end of the game.  I can play at my own pace.  Maybe I get in a few turns before bed.  Maybe I play a turn and then the baby wakes up.

I'm a little afraid of playing the game online.  People might want me to go faster than I'm comfortable.  I might not be very good at it relative to people who study it all the time.  I don't want to jump into a game and get my ass reamed.  The offline AI gives me that nice pleasant diversion of playing Le Havre without it being a stressful competitive experience.

I suspect that Adventure mode in dominion will serve that same niche.  How about all those solo challenge guys?  Those are pretty fun.

There are plenty of places where you don't have connectivity, but that you might want to play dominion.  Subways, trains, airplanes, the back seat of the family mini van.

The release of goko will remove all competing versions of the platform away - but doesn't actually meet the requirements of all of the users of the previous platforms.  Granted - those people can still use those apps because they won't get deleted - but what about someone who didn't get there in time?

Whether or not you feel that these people are feeling entitled due to the DXV / RGG generosity issue - I can see how they would feel a little let down - especially after all the leadup about official apps etc. - only to find that the official version is late, buggy, and doesn't work where you want it to when so many other successful applications have been released that do.

You don't want offline mode.  You're a top 100 player who finds no challenge in the bots.

Someone who's a little more casual and interested interested in the campaign mode might have a legitimate desire for it.  Surely you can see that?
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #255 on: August 17, 2012, 11:43:19 pm »
+1

I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
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sherwinpr

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #256 on: August 17, 2012, 11:56:51 pm »
0

I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.

Offline mode would be nice for when one is a frequent traveler, especially on flights that don't offer wi-fi (or charge a lot for it).  I think I'd play quite a bit in these situations.  It's also fun to build engines and think about the game without worrying about what your opponent is doing too much (although admittedly, that's a pretty substantial element of playing Dominion well).
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #257 on: August 18, 2012, 12:11:18 am »
0

It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #258 on: August 18, 2012, 12:30:44 am »
+1

I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
I've enjoyed playtesting the cards and AI. The bots are very bad at certain things, but it's not always one of those games, and of course they'll get better at some of that stuff. And sometimes they just get lucky, but maybe you can beat them by playing well. Lately I've played a mix of Desktop Dungeons and goko Dominion as my go-to waste-a-few-minutes games.

So, sure, games vs. bots have value, is what I think. So then the question is, how much of the time are the people who enjoy those games actually not online. I have no clue; I personally am never in a situation where I could play a computer game but am not online, but I'm probably not a great example.
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Donald X.

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #259 on: August 18, 2012, 12:34:24 am »
+1

It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.
I have a little more information here: the beta is open to everyone, which is to say they will just add people as fast as they can rather than limiting it in any way; and the beta will be segmented, that is, there will be "shards" with a certain number of people. They really did have a problem dealing with the load, and this is their temporary fix.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #260 on: August 18, 2012, 12:34:41 am »
+1

It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.

I wonder if I can re-sign up for the beta...for whatever reason they never accepted me before.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #261 on: August 18, 2012, 12:44:20 am »
0

It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.

I wonder if I can re-sign up for the beta...for whatever reason they never accepted me before.

On Twitter, they do encourage you to sign up for the beta. So, I guess go ahead and try again.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #262 on: August 18, 2012, 12:54:52 am »
+1

I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
I've enjoyed playtesting the cards and AI. The bots are very bad at certain things, but it's not always one of those games, and of course they'll get better at some of that stuff. And sometimes they just get lucky, but maybe you can beat them by playing well. Lately I've played a mix of Desktop Dungeons and goko Dominion as my go-to waste-a-few-minutes games.

So, sure, games vs. bots have value, is what I think. So then the question is, how much of the time are the people who enjoy those games actually not online. I have no clue; I personally am never in a situation where I could play a computer game but am not online, but I'm probably not a great example.

I personally have lots of time where I can't  get an online game and rather opt for a computer v human desktop game due to either
1)Internet provider fails :/
2)Browser fails
3)Server fails
4)Customer Service for above fails
5) Failure
6)Epic Failure
7)Why was there a space at 5) Failure
8)Have to turn off power for electrical work in my old house, take breaks while being too lazy to do anything else by playing computer games on laptop without power.
9)Got annoyed by people online, forget them, I have computers and they are nice, cute, and CRASH!!! Server down?!? FML!!!
10)I love my computers, they are cute, cuddly, and they never crash or make me curse or even make me quit! It's so much fun losing and winning versus computers because they aren't mean to me at all! And they even let me go get a bag of chips, eat some of them, come back, think, and eat some more, and then finish my turn! :D
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #263 on: August 18, 2012, 09:04:34 am »
0

@WW: Regarding Offline Mode - I think that most of us agree - offline mode is not particularly useful.

Quote
Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.

But you know what?  Le Havre is another one of my favorite games.  I have it on my ipad.  I play it offline.  When I wasn't schooling Yuma in Mafia V from the back of a bus on my iphone, I was playing Le Havre against 2 AIs.  It wasn't online because i don't have the fancy 3g ipad (mainly because I think that double paying for 2 data streams when I can only use 1 is a crock of shit)

It's not a very good AI.  I have never lost - regardless of difficulty.  However - it does let me have the joy of building my little le havre engine - and the stress of figuring out how to maximize my VP and get rid of all my loans by the end of the game.  I can play at my own pace.  Maybe I get in a few turns before bed.  Maybe I play a turn and then the baby wakes up.

I'm a little afraid of playing the game online.  People might want me to go faster than I'm comfortable.  I might not be very good at it relative to people who study it all the time.  I don't want to jump into a game and get my ass reamed.  The offline AI gives me that nice pleasant diversion of playing Le Havre without it being a stressful competitive experience.

I suspect that Adventure mode in dominion will serve that same niche.  How about all those solo challenge guys?  Those are pretty fun.

There are plenty of places where you don't have connectivity, but that you might want to play dominion.  Subways, trains, airplanes, the back seat of the family mini van.

The release of goko will remove all competing versions of the platform away - but doesn't actually meet the requirements of all of the users of the previous platforms.  Granted - those people can still use those apps because they won't get deleted - but what about someone who didn't get there in time?

Whether or not you feel that these people are feeling entitled due to the DXV / RGG generosity issue - I can see how they would feel a little let down - especially after all the leadup about official apps etc. - only to find that the official version is late, buggy, and doesn't work where you want it to when so many other successful applications have been released that do.

You don't want offline mode.  You're a top 100 player who finds no challenge in the bots.

Someone who's a little more casual and interested interested in the campaign mode might have a legitimate desire for it.  Surely you can see that?
I should have been more clear: I don't understand why you want to do that stuff, because it's really boring to me (and I have also spent several hours crushing those bots), but I understand that there are people who enjoy that, and ok, that's fine, whatever. If you guy like it, good for you.
That was intended to be more of a throwaway line than an argument.

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #264 on: August 20, 2012, 12:56:37 pm »
0

I don't get why Goko is having such trouble!  Days of Wonder has Ticket to Ride available for Macs, PCs, and iOS devices, all playing against each other.  I think they even have a browser version!  I'm really excited for online Dominion, but really!
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #265 on: August 24, 2012, 02:41:23 pm »
+3

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #266 on: August 24, 2012, 04:29:23 pm »
+1

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #267 on: August 24, 2012, 04:37:52 pm »
+1

Quote
I don't get why Goko is having such trouble!  Days of Wonder has Ticket to Ride available for Macs, PCs, and iOS devices, all playing against each other.

Ticket to Ride is really simple. Dominion is really very complex compared to most board game implementations, such as the games available on Yucata. The user interface has to display a lot of information at high speed to support multiple decisions about hands (or trash piles) of very variable size. Isotropic really is an excellent service.

Kingdom Builder would be about as difficult to produce online as Ticket to Ride.
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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #268 on: August 24, 2012, 04:57:01 pm »
+1

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

lol @ equivocation.
another victim of the "I'm always right" f.DS curse.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #269 on: August 24, 2012, 05:18:41 pm »
+3

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

lol @ equivocation.
another victim of the "I'm always right" f.DS curse.

No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.
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ftl

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #270 on: August 24, 2012, 05:27:30 pm »
+1

And yet, it's past Gencon, the thing is not publicly available and is in beta, and will remain so for the near future, thankfully. 
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #271 on: August 24, 2012, 05:49:34 pm »
+2

No, a failed launch is still a launch.

This is an interesting assertion.  Is a rocket that explodes on the launchpad still considered a launch? 

I've tried to reference it as a "failed launch attempt"
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eHalcyon

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #272 on: August 24, 2012, 05:59:10 pm »
0

No, a failed launch is still a launch.

This is an interesting assertion.  Is a rocket that explodes on the launchpad still considered a launch? 

I've tried to reference it as a "failed launch attempt"

Hm, you may also be technically correct about that.  But now we're arguing semantics... the best kind of arguing?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #273 on: August 24, 2012, 05:59:52 pm »
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Hm, you may also be technically correct about that.  But now we're arguing semantics... the best kind of arguing?

On the internet?  Without a doubt. :)
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Kirian

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Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
« Reply #274 on: August 24, 2012, 06:00:31 pm »
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No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.

Also, it's technically still in private beta, rather than public beta.  So technically correct on both counts!
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Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.
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