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[Beyond Awesome]

As a beta tester, I can guarantee you that I will be buying this on day one! It is not perfect, but how it is will do for now, and I'm sure things will get better.

[blueblimp]

An average-quality implementation of a great game is still worth playing, even though it's worse than a great implementation of a great game. So I'll probably buy Goko unless there's something game-breaking. Although I'm not too active on isotropic lately, so who knows.

[rspeer]

If isotropic were still an option, I would agree with you.  But when the choice is Goko vs. nothing, I don't think they're going to leave as quickly as you think.  Most likely if they're that invested in iso they want to play online Dominion even on an "inferior product" if that's their only choice.

Counterexample: A ton of my friends and I used to play Scrabulous. Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people. When Hasbro forced it to shut down and directed people to their buggy, toylike, excessively animated version of Facebook Scrabble, a couple of people learned to connect to the renegade Romanian version but most people, including me, just stopped playing Scrabble.

I'm sure Hasbro Scrabble has rebuilt a community by now, but it's not the same people.

I mentioned this on the forum before and Donald X made fun of me, but this is exactly what Goko and RGG are about to do. The parallels are uncanny. If this train wreck continues, I probably won't see most of you in a game again and it won't even be my conscious decision.

The only difference I see here is that the game has a living creator who loves his creation and cares about its future, and seems to occasionally be quietly saying that this isn't what he planned. There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.

[Kirian]

I'm sure Hasbro Scrabble has rebuilt a community by now, but it's not the same people.

I'd bet not.  People play Words With Friends instead because Zynga's clone works better than Hasbro's correct version ever did.  And we know how people around here love clones.

The parallels are uncanny. If this train wreck continues, I probably won't see most of you in a game again and it won't even be my conscious decision.

I'll admit I'd forgotten about the Scrabulous debacle, but yeah.  It's missing the lawsuits, thankfully.

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta

/crosses fingers

[Donald X.]

I mentioned this on the forum before and Donald X made fun of me, but this is exactly what Goko and RGG are about to do.

I'm there for you, whether you need isotropic to be public for a while so that you can miss it properly when it's gone, or a quick one-liner when you're being loony.

You were chicken littling over the idea that the company making the online version didn't want competition from free fan-made versions. But every company felt the same way. You might as well have been complaining, "Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.

You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

[rspeer]

You might as well have been complaining, "Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"

Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.

Scrabulous was a company and they had a good sense of how to make a board game into a solid computer game. Not so good of a plan for getting permission or surviving lawsuits, I know.

[blueblimp]

"Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"

Most software sucks.

[yudantaiteki]

Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people.

I think this is the key part that is different from iso.  While there may be some people on iso who aren't very serious and just want to fill a few minutes a day, the nature of iso's interface and lack of publicity would tend to draw in people who are more serious -- I'm not saying everyone is on the level of posters to this forum, but I just can't see that many people giving up on Goko in an hour simply because it's not like isotropic.

[jonts26]

Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people.

I think this is the key part that is different from iso.  While there may be some people on iso who aren't very serious and just want to fill a few minutes a day, the nature of iso's interface and lack of publicity would tend to draw in people who are more serious -- I'm not saying everyone is on the level of posters to this forum, but I just can't see that many people giving up on Goko in an hour simply because it's not like isotropic.

Again, not being like iso is a point in its favor for a lot of people I'm sure. Casual players like the flashy.

[Donald X.]

Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.

A year ago, Jay hadn't even met the guys. I have never thought it would be anything at the expense of gameplay. I expected the launch version to have all of the cards until a few months ago.

[lycotic]

on your iPad or Android tablet

Not phone.  So the app doesn't scale down to phones, and can't take up a few mindless minutes while waiting for a meeting.  And Androminion is going away.

[Kirian]

Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.

A year ago, Jay hadn't even met the guys. I have never thought it would be anything at the expense of gameplay. I expected the launch version to have all of the cards until a few months ago.

So the whole reason my annoyance at this whole mess began was because of this post from February 2011:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6286314#6286314

(Alas, I cannot find where I started my own bitching... apparently not on BGG though.  Perhaps here?  Or on the original blog pre-forum?  Hard to say.)

I'm just going to excerpt the parts important to me:

"My best guess it that if you asked me in two weeks I would say probably it will come out in September 2011... Furthermore my best guess would be that at that time, it would support multiple devices, and would have at least the base set and Intrigue but not everything that's published."

There's more to the post, but those are the key points.  Presumably the people working on it then were not FunSockets/Goko.  Again I want to remind people about killing the messenger--this is RGG working in its mysterious (poorly-thought-out IMO) ways.  But we've been discussing an "official" online app for over 18 months now; and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently.

As you say in that post, "how hard can it be really" to include all the sets?

I mean... I dunno, man.  15+ months of waiting and wondering. A private beta that's really a semi-public alpha, and that lasts less than two months, just to make a release date that seems not to be practical given where this thing currently is.

You know, I'm not even certain where I was going with this post.  This whole thing has been mishandled, from even talking about it when things weren't even set in Jell-O, much less stone, to Jay making you the messenger without giving you a message (or perhaps you did it on your own to engage the community?  I don't know), to the lack of updates from RGG, the continuous wondering when Iso would disappear... combined with this forum's insatiable (and borderline insane) desire for hard facts, strong personalities, etc... just so many levels of mishandling here.

And at the end of the day--or, I should say, the end of the day Thursday--we still have a product that might barely be suitable as a beta being released and hyped as a product for paying customers, and I am truly apprehensive that this won't go down well for RGG.  I want it to succeed; I want to be willing to give you money for this.  But the whole thing has been mishandled right from the start.

There's an image macro out there with a quote from a movie--Jaws?  I don't know--something about how things are gonna get bad, and we'll be lucky to live through them.  I'm probably getting it completely wrong, but that's how this situation feels.

[Thisisnotasmile]

At this point, the thing most likely to drive me away from Dominion (pretty much entirely, since I don't have a great deal of people to play more-than-just-Base with IRL) is this community. It was this community that got me so wrapped up in Dominion once I discovered Isotropic. The discussions, friendliness, puzzles and articles were all so interesting and insightful that I stayed around and for a long time I was the third (and possibly second for a bit when Guided disappeared) most active member of the forums. Recently though I haven't even been bothered enough about Dominion to even think of going to Isotropic to play the game. I think the reason for that is because I'm spending my time here reading the forums and there's no interesting Dominion discussion. There's just whining and moaning about Isotropic closing and being replaced by an official product, which, as Kirian quite handily pointed out, WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT FOR THE LAST 18 MONTHS. We've also known for the vast majority of that time that it's not going to be a pay-for version of Isotropic, because we were told a long time ago that ChickenZ didn't want the job.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but I've considered leaving this community a number of times over the last few months because of this, the only reason I haven't is because I've been here so long that I know I won't be able to just walk away. It's not somewhere that really makes me want to play a game that I love and enjoy like it used to anymore though. What's the point of playing a game if I can't have fun discussions about it too?

Unfortunately, at this point, there's no way I can make a statement such as "Funsockets will be getting my money on day 1", and it's nothing to do with Funsockets itself. I think Funsockets is a great implementation of a great game, in need of a few tweaks and additions, but otherwise great. It's this community that's holding my money from Funsockets.

I'm going to wait it out a month of so. If the naysaying doesn't stop, I'll have no choice but to walk away from what's been a huge and exciting part of the last few years of my life. If it does stop and the naysayers leave/get over it, I'll be able to continue enjoying my hobby.

[theory]

I agree with TINAS. 

Obviously it is not possible to impose a forum rule that forbids people from criticizing the new Dominion.  But I am pretty fed up with people's whining about it.  We get it -- it's not Isotropic.  It isn't perfect.

But do you know where this site, and CouncilRoom, and Dominion itself, would be if we only released things when they were perfect?  They would never exist.  You launch things with problems; that's a fact of life. 

It takes guts and determination to build something, but nothing at all to criticize.  If you really care about making this work, you would play on it relentlessly, constantly offer feedback, and demonstrate a willingness to accept what is new, instead of perpetually whining about what you are giving up.  And if you really hate it so much, then you are more than welcome to quit online Dominion.  You're still welcome in the community, but relentless negativity is unpleasant, unprofessional, immature, and makes us all look bad.

[Davio]

I wonder what it would be like if things were reversed.

What if Funsockets existed before Iso?

Would everyone be complaining about Iso's minimalistic UI?
Remember that we all came from the real life game which is as flashy as it can get of course.
We only found out about Iso because, well, that's where the best players were.

If the best players would have started on Funsockets, nobody would have moved over to Iso.
I can hear you screaming: "We want our fancy card images and animations!" "We want to be able to play with bots!"

I think that the Funsockets version deserves more credit than it's getting. We're all spoiled babies complaining about something we can try for free. I don't think the FS version is all that bad. Sure it has its quirks and bugs, but they're fixable and if you provide your comments in a constructive manner, the sooner they will try to fix it.

There's no point in trying it for free and crying "Weeeeeeh, it doesn't work!!!"

I must admit that I was also stunned about the harsh reactions I found all over the forums. I mean, we're all sad Iso's going, but in the end it's just a pastime. It's fun to play and be competitive and have a hobby, but it's not the end of our lives.

[yudantaiteki]

We're all spoiled babies complaining about something we can try for free. I don't think the FS version is all that bad. Sure it has its quirks and bugs, but they're fixable and if you provide your comments in a constructive manner, the sooner they will try to fix it.

But it's going live in a few days.  That's not much time to fix the problems.  I understand people's annoyance at the harsh tone some posters have been using and the repetitive nature of the posts, but we're talking about a game going live in several days that still has bugs related to the basic way that cards and the rules work.  They may fix these in time for the release but it's natural that people would be concerned.

Once again, people are not complaining about a free product.  They're complaining about something we're expected to pay money for.

There's no point in trying it for free and crying "Weeeeeeh, it doesn't work!!!"

Kirian is very harsh and tends to overreact, but he also has made very detailed posts with substantive criticisms -- he's not just doing empty whining.

(Also, it's not that surprising this would be a heavy topic of discussion -- Dark Ages isn't quite out yet and isotropic's demise is pretty big news considering this forum's almost built around isotropic and councilroom.  I think once the switch actually happens the talk will die down somewhat.)

[polonkus]

These complaints are being made because it seems like RGG is intent on shooting themselves in the foot, and none of the suggestions and warnings which were made months ago have been heeded.

Also because of the awful communication which has pervaded this long and windy road.

I really think this bit from kirian says it all: "and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently."

I'm probably not gonna have much to do with goku, but I'm just gonna make some predictions for 6-12 months down the line:

1. Lousy UI, bugs and animations drive away most of the hardcore iso players
2. Lack of decent competition guts the top-tier
3. Poor pricing structure leads to lack of adoption by casual (non-boardgamer) players
4. Goku shuts down servers citing lack of revenue
5. Some snarky comments by DXV

Be back to say "I told you so" again then.

[Captain_Frisk]

Be back to say "I told you so" again then.

I'm also critical of the current plan to release the product in its current state and expect people to pay money for it - but this post was exactly what theory was asking us to not do.  There's nothing constructive or useful in it.

Instead - you could provide some feedback to goko in terms of what your expectations are in a product that you'd be willing to pay for - perhaps adding to my post in the beta test forums:

http://funsockets.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/619-shut-up-and-take-my-money-consolidated-acceptance-criteria/

[kn1tt3r]

These complaints are being made because it seems like RGG is intent on shooting themselves in the foot, and none of the suggestions and warnings which were made months ago have been heeded.

Also because of the awful communication which has pervaded this long and windy road.

I really think this bit from kirian says it all: "and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently."

I'm probably not gonna have much to do with goku, but I'm just gonna make some predictions for 6-12 months down the line:

1. Lousy UI, bugs and animations drive away most of the hardcore iso players
2. Lack of decent competition guts the top-tier
3. Poor pricing structure leads to lack of adoption by casual (non-boardgamer) players
4. Goku shuts down servers citing lack of revenue
5. Some snarky comments by DXV

Be back to say "I told you so" again then.

Now that's a positive first post....

I think we should just do two simple things:
- acting like adults and not like childs who don't get exactly what they want
- not being under the impression to be the center of the Dominion world

As for the second point, I mean instead of feeling grateful to be, as a community, asked for an oppionion at all, we just take it for granted and still complain that our oppinion is not valued enough.

[Ozle]

What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve? All it will do is give you the opportunity to say 'I told you so' if it does indeed all go wrong. Wow, good for you, you have just won the internet!

Now you can label it all under 'Constructive Criticism' if you like, but how many times does stuff have to be repeated before it just comes across as 'whinging'


I get that there are inherent problems in the product, but do people think that GOKO, RGG and DvX are not aware of the state of the game? And how it will affect customer base and what not. I would imagine they have actually thought about this and not just throwing things at random out there. We have at least one experienced company (RGG) in there with quite a few years worth of business experience I would imagine, and the actual game designer who understands intrinsically how his game works.

If they have decided its time to release it for business reasons, then you're just going to have to accept that its getting released. If you don't want to pay for it by then, thats a real shame, some (most?) of you are pretty cool guys I expect!

[greatexpectations]

personally, the biggest selling point to me on funsockets will be the competition. really, that is what kept me coming back to iso.  there was a high level of play and a pretty well designed leaderboard which let me estimate my skill against both others and myself over time. if most of you guys are playing over there i probably will too.  i don't care too much about how the interface looks or feels (man, i have to be one of the more active posters still not in the beta) but it would be nice to have a similarly well designed leaderboard.  of course, i have some disposable income and a real appreciation for the game so they are probably getting my money either way.

to carry on the meta-discussion, all of the criticism has gotten kind of annoying lately.  it seems like my recent post feed is regularly filled with 10 separate threads (all of which seem to be having the same sort of discussion) with various statements about funsockets or funsockets vs. iso. i mean if we took out the funsockets criticism, the mafia posts, and the scout jokes the recent forum activity would basically be limited to rinkworks' contests. it got to the point where i was very tempted to start a r/cj (shortened to play nice) inspired thread to poke fun at it.

of course, for all those frustrated, the best way to counter the slog of off topic/critical posts is to generate some quality original content. there is plenty of excitement in the dominion world right about now we could be focusing on instead.  we have had a mini-set's worth of Dark Ages cards previewed.  we have the finals of the world masters tournament coming up, with a few of our own angling to win it. we have a new dominion product that, flaws or not, will certainly make sharing our passion a whole lot easier with all of our casual smartphone/tablet using friends. to me there just seems so much else we could be doing...
 
- working on simulations for Dark Ages cards.
- three sentence summaries of Dark Ages cards. 
- discussing tournament methods, rules, and formats on funsockets.
- figuring out how to mine data from funsockets/goko logs.
- whether or not/how to associate funsockets game data with isotropic data.
- speculating on the final table of the world masters tournament.
- improving and marketing the world masters tournament.
- organizing local gaming meetups or dominion tournaments
- more contribution and discussion for rinkworks' card contests.
- more dominion memes.
- IRL things like olympics, elections, the impending start of soccer/football seasons, curious things on mars

[Donald X.]

So the whole reason my annoyance at this whole mess began was because of this post from February 2011:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6286314#6286314

Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will. Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Funsockets didn't tell people anything, and some people hated that, but man maybe that was in fact a lot of bullet-dodging. I told people what I knew because they wanted me to.

I expected the game forever earlier, because I thought stuff was going on when nothing was. Yes there was an earlier company that nothing happened with. Then I expected the game earlier from funsockets, because I thought stuff was going on when nothing was. They hadn't started by the time I predicted they'd be done. They cleverly didn't start until they had a contract, and they did not have that contract in a remotely timely manner. Finally they had other stuff to work on too, which I didn't know would be the case.

I mean maybe in your head these guys are putting in 10-minute days shooting nerf guns at each other. That is not the case.

Again, okay, the lesson is don't tell people anything. You can find all the posts from people mad about not being told stuff too though.

[Donald X.]

5. Some snarky comments by DXV

I can't commit to that other stuff, but I can commit to this. I'm there for you!

[Donald X.]

What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve?

It's going to make me waste some time coming up with snarky comments!

I don't know what to tell you guys. This is just the place for a snark.

[greatexpectations]

What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve?

It's going to make me waste some time coming up with snarky comments!

I don't know what to tell you guys. This is just the place for a snark.

well, it is snark week after all.