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[ednever]

Obviously duration cards are sometimes good and sometimes bad (like all things in Dominion)

But I've been thinking about another concept lately. Here's the idea:

Assuming no attackers on the board, when would you spend $3 on a lighthouse (over a silver) (Or if you didn't need actions - when Fishing Village over silver)

Even more extreme: When Merchant Ship over Gold?

We know that usually $2 over two turns is worse than $2 in one turn. Both because spikey money is (usually) better in Dominion, and because duration cards miss the shuffle a lot more than non-duration cards - meaning you get to play them less.

So what are the situations where you would RATHER have a card that spreads itself out?

Here's my theory (It still needs a lot of work, and likely some simulations - which is why it's here and not in articles):

"When you want cards that get out of the way."

I had a few games recently where I thought this made sense. Here's one:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/09/game-20120809-164746-ed63e3cb.html

In that game I picked up Merchant Ships on $6+ instead of Gold. My thinking was, with an apothecary-engine I would rather have the card produce $4 (total) and stay out of the way on the second turn so I could still draw my deck (most/some of the time).

I've also used similar thinking to pick up Lighhouse over silver (even on $3) in Chapel Games - where I want the LH out of my hand so I can trash other things. I don't have logs for these ones unfortunately (maybe tomorrow I can find some).

Finally: I think there may be times in Colony games when you want LH instead of Silver. In these games you want to move 'past silver' as quickly as possible, and while LH provides less $s upfront, it gets out of the way more later.

Simulations:
I ran a basic simulation of "Just buy money" vs. "But Lighthouse instead of silver" and Money wins 66% of the time - so it's definitely not right as a basic precept.
I tried adding a card that likes to connect with other cards but isn't an attack - Baron. Now Baron-Silver beats Baron-LH but only by 51-43
Chapel: 50-46
Fool's Gold: 49-47
Then I tried Alchemist (who REALLY wants to connect with the potion) - LH finally wins 50-46

Maybe my thinking is off-base, but I think there is something here. Obviously LH is better when there are attacks on the board, and FV when you need actions. But I wonder if there is more to it in other situations.

Call it the "get out of the way" strategy.

Thoughts?

Ed

[werothegreat]

Most of the Durations are insanely powerful.  I always buy Fishing Village over Silver, particularly if there's an engine I like on the board.  True, playing four Lighthouses doesn't do too much for you this turn, but next turn, all you need are two Silvers, and there's your Province.  Fishing Village, Lighthouse, and to a lesser extent Merchant Ship (since it's terminal), all add up.  Throw in Wharf and Caravan, and you're buying Provinces every turn.  Sure, the benefit is spread out, but it's skewed in such a way that it's amazing on your next turn.  Tactician takes this to the extreme by destroying your current turn, and making your next turn the best ever.  So really, I can't think of any instance where I'd refrain from buying FV, Caravan, LH or Wharf.  Tactician, Outpost and MS are a bit more specialized, and I wouldn't acquire them 100% of the time, but they're still powerful.

[ednever]

Most of the Durations are insanely powerful.  I always buy Fishing Village over Silver, particularly if there's an engine I like on the board.  True, playing four Lighthouses doesn't do too much for you this turn, but next turn, all you need are two Silvers, and there's your Province.  Fishing Village, Lighthouse, and to a lesser extent Merchant Ship (since it's terminal), all add up.  Throw in Wharf and Caravan, and you're buying Provinces every turn.  Sure, the benefit is spread out, but it's skewed in such a way that it's amazing on your next turn.  Tactician takes this to the extreme by destroying your current turn, and making your next turn the best ever.  So really, I can't think of any instance where I'd refrain from buying FV, Caravan, LH or Wharf.  Tactician, Outpost and MS are a bit more specialized, and I wouldn't acquire them 100% of the time, but they're still powerful.

Interesting.

Respectfully: I think in general you are wrong.

I think Lighthouse is awesome when it blocks attacks, but otherwise it is not as good as a silver.
I think Fishing Village is awesome when you need actions - but if you don't (the entire kingdom is cantrips for example) then Silver is better
And Lab is almost always a better call than Caravan (hence the $4 -> $5)

Caravan/Lab is a good place to start to understand why non-duration is (in general) better. Caravan is a cantrip this turn and a Lab next turn. And it costs $1 less. Even so pure Lab beats pure Caravan 57-33

The reason is you get to play the duration cards a LOT less.


What I'm interested in is the times when you (1) Want to buy the cards, but (2) Want the cards to appear less often

Maybe it doesn't exist (although Alchemist shows it does at least in one case), but I'm not sure how to figure out when it does and when it doesn't

Ed

[Wingnut]

Independent of the defense, I want Lighthouse over Silver in a Scrying Pool game no question (and obviously Fishing Village). The defense there is just a bonus but I want Lighthouse even without its defensive capability there.

Merchant Ship is more interesting. Maybe I take one over a Gold in a Duchy/Duke game where I am using an engine to get there?

Also, in the Stay out of the Way category, I want Merchant Ship over Gold in a Tunnel game. I'm going to get Gold in that kind of game anyway but a Merchant Ship often makes the C-C-C-T-E hand that often happens a heck of a lot more useful than had I played a Gold on the previous turn

[DG]

There is an advantage to getting the duration card for income when you are almost exactly drawing your deck each turn. If you're on the limit then you can hopefully see that and make the decision. This might be alchemists, double tactician, big caravan/lab drawing, whatever.

There are obviously a lot of specific kingdom cards that can make of these actions, such as peddlers, minions, fairgrounds, hunting parties, vineyards, etc but lets ignore all those. I'm guessing that's a different topic.

If you want something new to consider then think about the variance of income in each hand. If you have income coming mostly from duration cards then it tends to be quite consistent, rolling over from turn to turn. More often though you have a mix of treasures and duration cards and these generate extra variance in income beyond that from treasures alone. To be honest I'm not sure I've ever deliberately tried to harness this variance but an awareness of the possibilities could be useful.

[dondon151]

The reason is you get to play the duration cards a LOT less.

Not only that, but you also "lose" a turn if you try to get all of your output from duration cards. Imagine if Duration cards were cleaned up immediately after they were played but still gave the next turn benefit (thus eliminating the "missing the reshuffle" problem) - I'd bet they'd still do worse in a head to head matchup with their non-duration counterparts (also assuming similar prices).

[verikt]

kc decks for sure. kc merchant ship is much better than gold. jack, watchtower, library or bishop decks. (when you want to bishop with no cards in hand) I'd say it's probably better against some discard attacks too. it's one less card you need in hand. in decks with an oversupply of actions, where playing it doesn't clog your deck like treasure. in outpost games, where having a good duration hand makes it worth buying an outpost.

[eHalcyon]

We know that usually $2 over two turns is worse than $2 in one turn.

I disagree.  I would rather have $2 on the second turn as well.

[carstimon]

Something about apothecary compared to standard drawing: you would look at your non-copper/potions more than once per turn.  Whereas if you are doing a normal 5-cards-per-turn thing, you only have to deal with the gold/mc once in a turn. This multiplies the annoyingness of non-coppers in your deck, so getting stuff out of your deck is nice.  Not sure if this is important to what we're talking about.

kc decks for sure. kc merchant ship is much better than gold.

This seems like an unfair comparison.  Really you want to compare it to kc-[terminal which gives $3].  But now you say, "I prefer kc merchant ship, because it's spread out more.  I don't need $9 this hand.  I prefer $6 two hands in a row."  Maybe.  Remember KC stays with the merchant ship though.