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Author Topic: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread  (Read 13683 times)

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Qvist

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IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« on: August 09, 2012, 04:13:33 pm »
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I hope you're fine with me starting a new thread, because I don't know where to put these games otherwise.

You can watch the match-up here: and/or read the comments below.

Game 1:
Qvist 15 - 6 SpajderDzerusalem
This was a straight-forward IGG game with help from Militia. As first player Militia is great for me. I play mine in turn 3, buy another one in turn 4 and play another one in turn 5. He plays his in turn 5 the first time - obviously missed the reshuffle - and can play it on turn 8 again. With this luck I get a big IGG lead. I'm not so sure about his Trading Post buy, IGG were more important here. So I can win the split 8-2 and therefore the game.

Game 2:
SpajderDzerusalem 21 - 32 Qvist
The most interesting game IMO. That's a Torturer game with Ambassador, Scheme and Hamlet. I wasn't so sure why he opened Hamlet/Silver, but that was the clear signal to open Ambassador/Scheme and later transition into Hamlets and Torturers. But can get a lucky Mint and later two early Provinces with the Torturer, Hamlet and Curse piles getting smaller and smaller. But my engine got rolling. And with my Ambassador and Torturer I can heavily curse him, what hurts his small deck with not so much economy. I then buy Duchies and hope for some Provinces. And... yeah, there was also Duke on the board... I bought only one. In the end I could catch up, my patience paid off.

Game 3:
SpajderDzerusalem 40 - 38 Qvist
This was an obvious Scheme/Sea Hag game, but with a 5/2 split. As first player he has a huge advantage and I had a lot of $2 hands. But still the curse split ws 5/5, but he had more money. We then transitioned into Venture/Tunnel, but he also got a Forge and that Forge gave him the deciding Province although I could heavily catch up, but lost with 2 points.

Game 4:
Qvist 51 - 34 SpajderDzerusalem
I thought a lot here in the beginning, either trying something with Alchemists or some engine with Jester (but the only draw card was Courtyard) or Merchant Ship Big Money. But I decided to wait and react what he did and opened Horse Traders/Silver. I got an early Gold and decided to go for a straight-forward Merchant Ship Big Money game. And that was the right decision. I got some lucky $8 hands and could easily run out the Duchies later so that there weren't enought points left for him to catch up. A few turns later I could buy the last Province.

Edit: added CR logs
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 04:19:25 am by Qvist »
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clb

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 05:35:26 pm »
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Game 4:
Qvist 51 - 34 SpajderDzerusalem
I thought a lot here in the beginning, either trying something with Alchemists or some engine with Jester (but the only draw card was Courtyard) or Merchant Ship Big Money. But I decided to wait and react what he did and opened Horse Traders/Silver. I got an early Gold and decided to go for a straight-forward Merchant Ship Big Money game. And that was the right decision. I got some lucky $8 hands and could easily run out the Duchies later so that there weren't enought points left for him to catch up. A few turns later I could buy the last Province.

I don't have a good feel for the relative speed of a merchant ship BM versus a courtyard BM. Are those both in the simulator so I can get a feel for how much faster one is than the other?
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 06:04:20 pm »
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Game 4:
Qvist 51 - 34 SpajderDzerusalem
I thought a lot here in the beginning, either trying something with Alchemists or some engine with Jester (but the only draw card was Courtyard) or Merchant Ship Big Money. But I decided to wait and react what he did and opened Horse Traders/Silver. I got an early Gold and decided to go for a straight-forward Merchant Ship Big Money game. And that was the right decision. I got some lucky $8 hands and could easily run out the Duchies later so that there weren't enought points left for him to catch up. A few turns later I could buy the last Province.

I don't have a good feel for the relative speed of a merchant ship BM versus a courtyard BM. Are those both in the simulator so I can get a feel for how much faster one is than the other?
They are both in the simulator. And Courtyard+BM is way better than Merchant Ship+BM (assuming no other interactions). Courtyard+BM is about even with Wharf+BM, if that gives you some idea. It's really really strong. Edit: Never mind, the included Merchant Ship+BM is unoptimized. Still, I'd bet on Courtyard any day.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:05:37 pm by blueblimp »
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O

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 11:19:38 pm »
0

Game 4:
Qvist 51 - 34 SpajderDzerusalem
I thought a lot here in the beginning, either trying something with Alchemists or some engine with Jester (but the only draw card was Courtyard) or Merchant Ship Big Money. But I decided to wait and react what he did and opened Horse Traders/Silver. I got an early Gold and decided to go for a straight-forward Merchant Ship Big Money game. And that was the right decision. I got some lucky $8 hands and could easily run out the Duchies later so that there weren't enought points left for him to catch up. A few turns later I could buy the last Province.

I don't have a good feel for the relative speed of a merchant ship BM versus a courtyard BM. Are those both in the simulator so I can get a feel for how much faster one is than the other?
They are both in the simulator. And Courtyard+BM is way better than Merchant Ship+BM (assuming no other interactions). Courtyard+BM is about even with Wharf+BM, if that gives you some idea. It's really really strong. Edit: Never mind, the included Merchant Ship+BM is unoptimized. Still, I'd bet on Courtyard any day.


Err... why is Merchant Ship + Courtyard BM not an option?
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 12:03:07 am »
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Game 4:
Qvist 51 - 34 SpajderDzerusalem
I thought a lot here in the beginning, either trying something with Alchemists or some engine with Jester (but the only draw card was Courtyard) or Merchant Ship Big Money. But I decided to wait and react what he did and opened Horse Traders/Silver. I got an early Gold and decided to go for a straight-forward Merchant Ship Big Money game. And that was the right decision. I got some lucky $8 hands and could easily run out the Duchies later so that there weren't enought points left for him to catch up. A few turns later I could buy the last Province.

I don't have a good feel for the relative speed of a merchant ship BM versus a courtyard BM. Are those both in the simulator so I can get a feel for how much faster one is than the other?
They are both in the simulator. And Courtyard+BM is way better than Merchant Ship+BM (assuming no other interactions). Courtyard+BM is about even with Wharf+BM, if that gives you some idea. It's really really strong. Edit: Never mind, the included Merchant Ship+BM is unoptimized. Still, I'd bet on Courtyard any day.


Err... why is Merchant Ship + Courtyard BM not an option?
Maybe it is? I don't know. I was just commenting on the question given (which was Courtyard vs Merchant Ship).
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 02:59:50 am »
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Of course Courtyard beats MS in the simulator because you can always open with Courtyard which helps you to get to Gold. With MS you have to open Silver/Silver in the sim and hope for a lucky $5. I'm no BM expert and maybe I should have opened Silver/Courtyard. But after I decided for HT/Silver and got a Gold in turn 3 and $5 in turn 4 I was and still am very confident that Merchant Ship is better here than Courtyard. So I make this statement now: Pure Courtyard BM is stronger than MS BM, but Merchant Ship is a better card for BM than Courtyard if you ignore the cost. And I agree with O, you can easily combine MS and Courtyard.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 03:19:25 am »
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I think Courtyard BM should beat Courtyard+Merchant Ship. Assuming you open Courtyard, when are you going to buy the Merchant Ship? You really don't hit $5 too many times beyond really early. Mostly you buy Golds and Provinces. And with all the Golds, drawing cards is better than +$2 twice.
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O

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 03:27:59 am »
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I think Courtyard BM should beat Courtyard+Merchant Ship. Assuming you open Courtyard, when are you going to buy the Merchant Ship? You really don't hit $5 too many times beyond really early. Mostly you buy Golds and Provinces. And with all the Golds, drawing cards is better than +$2 twice.


Sorry but this isn't quite logical. Just because you won't hit 5$ in some games doesn't mean the games you do buying a MS won't help.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 03:32:59 am »
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^No, that was kind a serious question. When do you want to buy it? Early instead of a second Courtyard? As a third action on turn 8 or something? Any later on you're probably buying Duchies. A second Courtyard is probably going to be better than Merchant Ship, and with 2 Courtyards, the Merchant Ship is only getting in the way. The statement about Golds was a reason second Courtyard is better than Merchant Ship.

EDIT: Sorry. Just read this and it's as confusing as the previous post.
Q: When do you buy Merchant Ship
Possible Answers:
1. As your second action around turn 3 or 4.
2. Turn 6-8 as your third action
3. Later

3 won't work because the game is too fast. You want Duchies.
2 won't work because with 2 cards that draw 3 cards, you're not getting much bang for your buck with the Merchant Ships. They just force you to put them back on the deck instead of choosing an appropriate amount of money to smooth out your draws.
1 won't work because with the ease of Gold purchase, +cards is better than +$.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:36:40 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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O

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 03:47:00 am »
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I don't see much issue with T3/T4, and think you overestimate how quickly CY gets golds.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 04:20:59 am »
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^Try it in sim. I bet you it won't work. I think you underestimate how quickly Courtyard gets Golds.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 08:28:25 am »
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I assume that having some time that you buy a merchant ship on exactly 5 will help. The problem with sim-ing this is that it makes for some non-trivial courtyard decisions. Having said that, I can get a very very very mild increase on a 5/2 start by tossing MS in there. Once I wake up more I'm sure I can do better. But generally, you're right, it doesn't help very much.

DG

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 10:35:34 am »
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I'm not sure why it's worth discussing since he should have opened horse traders+loan anyway, keeping all options available, and for the game as played the merchant ship suits an apprentice continuation.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 01:51:30 pm »
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Thanks for starting this Qvist.  I'm about to go completely off the radar... posting from my cell now and soon going to an area without 3g service.  Just until Sunday though.  Have fun all!
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yuma

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 02:29:55 pm »
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Anything we need to know now that we know goko is up on the 16th?
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 03:09:07 pm »
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Anything we need to know now that we know goko is up on the 16th?

No idea.  I forfeit to whoever I would play, can't access that right now.  I'd be plenty happy to allow someone else to take over at this point, as goko isn't ready for prime time and I'd prefer not to support it by running the tournament on it.  However, I'll still compile scores and the like so it can tun its course for people who will still be playing.
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 04:09:43 pm »
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My vote is that, once isotropic goes down, the tournament should be suspended until further notice. Right now, Goko is not a suitable platform for a tournament for numerous reasons (which I won't bother listing, since that stuff belongs in the appropriate forum), and I doubt that will change by release time.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 05:29:26 pm »
+2

I know this probably isn't feasible because of scheduling, but it would be great if we could blast through this bracket part and finish before iso goes down. At least at this stage there aren't as many matches to arrange.
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Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 05:41:00 pm »
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I know this probably isn't feasible because of scheduling, but it would be great if we could blast through this bracket part and finish before iso goes down. At least at this stage there aren't as many matches to arrange.

Yeah, for me, it's only 2 games left. Hopefully...

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 11:01:47 am »
+1

Just in case anyone didn't know, the pairings for the elimination brackets are up at http://isodom.challonge.com/.
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qmech

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2012, 12:04:39 pm »
+1

Thanks for the match qmech.

Thanks for (out)playing me. :)  I'm free at last!
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angrybirds

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2012, 10:38:35 am »
+1

angrybirds (3) - chriskern(1)

Game 1 Sea Hag/Chapel. I can't buy anything but Silver til turn 12. He wins easily.

Game 2 Moneylender BM with stashes and banks wins here

Game 3 Bishop game with very messy green ending.

Game 4 Goons game; hamlets, NV and Estates pile out
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yudantaiteki

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2012, 07:49:57 pm »
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Thanks for the games.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Quarterfinals Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 12:44:57 pm »
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HiveMindEmulator 3 : 0 lespeutere

HME 38 : 27 lespeutere http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/15/game-20120815-091128-398af33a.html
HME 26 : 24 lespeutere http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/15/game-20120815-091523-be20184d.html
HME 34 : 25 lespeutere http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/15/game-20120815-091943-3136595b.html

This was maybe the quickest Bo5 ever. Lespeutere said he only had 25 minutes, but we only needed 15, even with a Scrying Pool game.

Game 1 was a Colony game with Scrying Pool but no +buy, and with Transmute and Develop as the only gainers. I got a 5/2 split, so I ended up getting a little more economy going before my Potion which helped me get a little lead before the game ended on piles.

Game 2 was Young Witch/Hunting Party/Chapel. He opened Chapel/Silver, and so I figured that with Hunting Party and with him not opening Young Witch, I'd be able to skip Chapel. There was a scary time when he got 3 Provinces in 4 turns, but then either I got lucky, or his essentially Chapel BM deck choked hard on green(+Curses) like it's supposed to. I'm not sure.

Game 3 was essentially Jack+Warehouse. He made a bit of a questionable Spice Merchant buy with $5 on turn 4, but certainly luck was not on his side as both his opening cards fell to turn 5 while I continued to get generally good draws. He still might have been able to pull out a win if his Council Room, which he bought really late, had come up earlier in the shuffle, but as it was, he never got to play it.

Sorry to lespeutere for the very rough luck, and thanks for the games!
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