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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils  (Read 174247 times)

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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2012, 12:22:23 pm »
0

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?

True. Spoils gets returns to its stack when you play it, and Herbalist's power activates during cleanup.

Kinda too bad. That would be a nice little boost to Herbalist. But I guess it might be a little bit game-breaking.
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2012, 12:23:08 pm »
0

With Rats, you have to wonder if the cure is worse than the disease, particularly with junk-infested decks.  It can probably end up eating the junk from a plaque of Montebanks in multiplayer games - but without a way to control the Rats... you get the idea.  I have no doubt it can be a really fast trasher of a deck of junk, but I think it is only going to be useful when it is in play with another trasher (to control the Rats). 

Since Dark Ages has some love for silver Develop is probably a useful card to turn Rats into silver and a good $5 card (opening Rats / Develop may be a pretty fast start).  Remake is already a good fast trasher at the same price point, and with Poor House at $1 it isn't the deck thinner it can be if that is on the table.  The extra helping of Rats in the supply almost seems towards balancing out a fast three pile ending (with only 10 Rats the Curses become a viable buy pile with the Rats eating the curses while the Rats breed). 

I shudder to think of the combos with Pillage.  All the tricks that go with Governor (or Council Room) and a handsize reduction attack can be expanded (with a bit of help) to get rid of the best card of an opponent before they lose most of the rest of their hands.  Plus the Pillager gets the Spoils. 
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2012, 12:24:43 pm »
+1

Hermit + Scheme = Yes!

Spoils + Herbalist = No!

I mean, you can't Scheme a Madman, either.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2012, 12:30:11 pm »
0

but on each play of rats, you are just replacing a card with a rats (rather than thinning), and gee, I don't know how good a trade that is.

This is the big thing for me... Rats don't really "trash" a card... they just replace a card with a Rats. I too am quite confused as to how Rats is a good card; but I'm also willing to bet that there's a whole bunch of combos out there that we haven't thought of yet (or combos with cards we haven't seen yet) that will make Rats pretty awesome.
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Mister Alex

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2012, 12:37:29 pm »
+12

Rats + Vineyard =  :o

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

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Willvon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2012, 12:39:00 pm »
+2

My thoughts on Shelters:

First of all, I apologize if I unintentionally semi-plagiarize an idea someone else had in previous threads when people were expressing ideas about Shelters.  I do recall that most everyone felt it would provide some sort of victory point, even if it was negative.  I have been thinking about the name "Shelters".  That suggests something different to me.

No one has problems with living in an Estate.  And if it is your Duchy, Province, or Colony, obviously you are going to have a place to live, and a nice one at that.  But a Shelter implies a pretty low budget residence, maybe even somewhere below a tent in some cases, though a tent could certainly be considered a shelter.  On the other hand, if you have a choice between a Ruins and a Shelter, I think the choice would be pretty obvious.  So I feel with the name "Shelter" and the fact that they will only be in your starting hand, not in the supply (since there are only 18 of them), it will not have any victory point value.  Rather, I believe its main function will be to exist in games that have Ruins, and thus it will serve as some sort of Shelter from the Ruins.  Unfortunately, they still take up space in your hand, like a starting Estate.  And we know how quickly we try to get rid of those Estates.  So now the choice will be whether to get rid of the Shelter and face living in a Ruin, or stick with the Shelter, which will slow down your upgrade to a better place of dwelling.

Consider the names of the other Alt-Victory Cards we have.  They pretty much all imply something positive.  Who doesn't want to be a Duke or a Noble?  Every good Castle needs a Great Hall and a nice Garden, and of course, a Harem.  And isn't it a good thing to have a Vineyard to make some good wine along with some Farmland to grow some good food to go with the wine?  Also, who wouldn't want to have their own Island?  Having a Fairgrounds suggests a happy occasion, and sending someone down the Silk Road with goods to trade means you are going to get some pretty nice stuff in return.  Of course, there is Tunnel - not the greatest place to live, but this Tunnel is a mining tunnel that gives a rich reward.  Shelters just doesn't evoke any positive images to me like these others do.

I may be totally off on this idea, but the name of the card just seemed to fit that concept.  If they are as I suggest, then I could see Donald explaining their purpose in a similar way.
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2012, 12:41:33 pm »
0

Rats + Vineyard =  :o

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2012, 12:43:10 pm »
0

Rats + Vineyard =  :o

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.
You can do it with two.

Whitecrow

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2012, 12:46:20 pm »
0

I'd like to try Rats+Oasis+Vineyard.

Rush for Vineyard and Oasis (or any cantrip money), then buy out Rats pool to finish the game!

I figure that If you draw whole deck and have all rats hand, you can gain all remaining rats in one turn.
(let's say you have one rats in hand, one rats in discard pile, and empty draw pile.)
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popsofctown

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2012, 12:48:05 pm »
0

It seems like you can just pick up Rats late in a deck that has not started trashing yet, and it will function kind of like a 1/3 warehouse that gains other 1/3 warehouses and helps you filter and buy the last couple Provinces
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2012, 12:48:54 pm »
0

Rats + Vineyard =  :o

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.
You can do it with two.

So
Step 1. Somehow purchase all the Vineyards while NVing your starting cards and Vineyards as fast as possible.
Step 2. Buy a Rats (or 2)
Step 3. Eat everything, including the Potions and the final NV, gaining all the Rats.
Step 4. Hope that somehow you emptied a third pile in the process, because good luck ending the game with a deck of 20 Rats and no buying power.
Step 5. End the game with most of the Vineyards and 21 action cards (assuming at least one NV made it to the NV mat and avoided being eaten)

Step 1 is really the problem. It would be a very cool stunt deck if you could make it happen though.
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2012, 12:50:01 pm »
0

I'd like to try Rats+Oasis+Vineyard.

Rush for Vineyard and Oasis (or any cantrip money), then buy out Rats pool to finish the game!

I figure that If you draw whole deck and have all rats hand, you can gain all remaining rats in one turn.
(let's say you have one rats in hand, one rats in discard pile, and empty draw pile.)

I guess having the actions in play is a much more obvious (and elegant) solution for getting them out of the way.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2012, 12:51:28 pm »
0

It seems like you can just pick up Rats late in a deck that has not started trashing yet, and it will function kind of like a 1/3 warehouse that gains other 1/3 warehouses and helps you filter and buy the last couple Provinces
This seems terrible. 1/3 warehouse is bad enough, because you are getting to choose 4 of 5, rather than 4 of 7, which is a huge deal, but that you actually have to trash the thing hurts more, because you can't use it to whip past VP so readily, particularly in your late-game scenario.
It also costs 4.

Fuu

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2012, 12:52:08 pm »
0

I am chuffed to see a self-duplicating card. Never thought it would be a trashing card, but it's nicely thematic this way. Seriously considering getting this set, mostly because of Rats... I wonder if there will be a reaction in this set that helps against Rats, e.g., when you trash a card, you may reveal this; if you do, draw up to n>5. Or even, if you do, you may gain a copy of that card (ok that wording doesn't work, but something similar). So many possibilities.

Still, a shame that there isn't going to be an alternative victory card (at least in this set) that counts something to do with the trash pile - maybe it wouldn't have worked for some reason? REALLY looking forward to reading the secret history behind this set - so many design decisions I want to hear about.
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popsofctown

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2012, 12:52:30 pm »
0

Oasis doesn't really work, you'd trash your vineyards.  Joth's rat rush works though, and I think it'd be the only way to play the board the combo shows up on.
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2012, 12:53:41 pm »
+3

Best Rats Tactics:

Open Masq/Rats.
Give Rats to your opponent.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #141 on: August 09, 2012, 12:54:11 pm »
0

Rats + Vineyard =  :o

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.
You can do it with two.

So
Step 1. Somehow purchase all the Vineyards while NVing your starting cards and Vineyards as fast as possible.
Step 2. Buy a Rats (or 2)
Step 3. Eat everything, including the Potions and the final NV, gaining all the Rats.
Step 4. Hope that somehow you emptied a third pile in the process, because good luck ending the game with a deck of 20 Rats and no buying power.
Step 5. End the game with most of the Vineyards and 21 action cards (assuming at least one NV made it to the NV mat and avoided being eaten)

Step 1 is really the problem. It would be a very cool stunt deck if you could make it happen though.
Scout! (and some kind of discarder.... warehouse or something)

Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #142 on: August 09, 2012, 12:58:34 pm »
0

I mean, all Rats scenarios start like a good idea and seem to be just a wild dream. I mean, your just replacing things with Rats, and that's the main problem.

Next Card Preview:
Plague
$6
Reveal your hand, cards in play, deck and discard pile. If all cards are named either Rats or Plague, you win the game.
----
Setup: Add Rats to the supply.
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gamesou

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #143 on: August 09, 2012, 01:02:28 pm »
+11

You should go to the black market. They have sterilized their rats.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #144 on: August 09, 2012, 01:02:56 pm »
0

I mean, all Rats scenarios start like a good idea and seem to be just a wild dream. I mean, your just replacing things with Rats, and that's the main problem.

Next Card Preview:
Plague
$6
Reveal your hand, cards in play, deck and discard pile. If all cards are named either Rats or Plague, you win the game.
----
Setup: Add Rats to the supply.

Probably far too easy to pull off...
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2012, 01:03:16 pm »
0

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2012, 01:06:21 pm »
0

You should go to the black market. They have sterilized their rats.
Oh I get it now!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #147 on: August 09, 2012, 01:06:44 pm »
+5

I'm disappointed that none of these cards were described as "the ____ you always knew I'd make." I found those to be quite funny for the last 3 days.

"Rats is the self-replicating, deck-eating, insane action card you always knew I'd make."
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #148 on: August 09, 2012, 01:08:58 pm »
0

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).

Indeed, it's possible that Rats will be similar to Tunnel, in that when there's no TFB card, you just completely ignore it (or get 1 or 2 at the end to try and clear out a couple curses for the extra VP). But I really hope that new combos are discovered where it just turns out to be an awesome buy at least a fair amount of the time.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #149 on: August 09, 2012, 01:09:59 pm »
+5

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