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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils  (Read 174188 times)

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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #100 on: August 09, 2012, 11:09:59 am »
0

I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

I agree, Drab Emordnilap was right actually - I just wasn't exact enough in my reply.
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Ferrouswheel

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2012, 11:10:14 am »
0

I may have missed it, but what happens when you trash a cultist or a rats when you are possessing someone?

You still get the benefits, I assume?
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lespeutere

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2012, 11:16:48 am »
0

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.
Quote from: lespeutere
Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

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Fangz

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2012, 11:16:55 am »
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Quote
Cool theme, but it seems terrible at first glance. You have to gain a Rats if you trash a card and you can't trash Rats with Rats. So you definitely need another trasher if you want Rats. But with another trasher, why buy Rats in the first place?? I'm still not understanding this card, especially for the high cost of $4. Again there's a combo with Watchtower. You can trash a card with a Laboratory. This will be great.

I think you are misunderstanding the cost issue - if anything else, the high cost helps Rats, because it means the cards have more value, since it can be upgraded or remade into a $5, as a potentially fast way of increasing the value of a deck. If Rats were $3, they would be much worse.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2012, 11:18:29 am »
+2

Actually, Mint does say that the gained copy must be from the supply (just as Smugglers and some other gainers by the way) - although only in the additional kingdom card descriptions.

Mine doesn't say it anywhere as far as I can see, though.
You are correct, Mine's FAQ is missing this rule. That is a mistake; Mine can only gain cards from the supply.

When you make someone trash a Cultist when you are Possessing them, they draw the three cards.
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jsimantov

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2012, 11:18:40 am »
+1

I may have missed it, but what happens when you trash a cultist or a rats when you are possessing someone?

You still get the benefits, I assume?

Possession is pretty clear if you read the rules. Remember that the other player is the one taking a turn, and you are just making their decisions for them and gaining cards they would gain. So if you make them trash a trash-for-benefit card, and the benefit is to gain a card, you gain it instead. But if the benefit is to draw cards, they draw them (of course, you are controlling them at the time, so it indirectly benefits you).

Also, of course, when you make a Possessed player trash a card, it's set aside and returned to their discard after Clean-up -- but that doesn't mean it isn't "trashed" for an instant first, so the benefit is still triggered.
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2012, 11:19:53 am »
0

True, playing a rats and trashing a copper instantly adds $4 worth of 'value' to your deck for the purpose of most TFB cards. Even so, it still seems like any combo involving rats will be tricky to pull off (or just too slow to be worthwhile).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2012, 11:20:02 am »
+1

Cross-posting!

Batch 4

Rats

This is the next DA design rule breaker -- no more than 10 cards in a supply pile.  Well, I don't know if it was really a rule, though I was always against cards that took up extra supply space.  But Rats definitely works better with 20!

So Rats is actually quite a liability.  If you don't have a way to get rid of them, they will destroy your deck from the inside.  Watchtower is useful, of course -- stop Rats as they come in.  Other TFB would also be helped by all the fodder.  I can't think of situations where you want Rats unless there is another trasher available.  Maybe something will come up in a future preview.

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pillage/Spoils

My first thought -- awesome wordplay.  The attack doesn't benefit your current turn.  In that, it is like Sea Hag and Saboteur.  Hag is amazing, Sab is not so much.  Pillage costs $5 like Sab.  But the attack is likely to hurt a LOT, especially after the early game.  No wonder it's a one-shot.

The Spoils are a nice little prize too.  That they are also one-shot... hm.  The wording on the card means that Pillage is throneable/KC-able, giving you much more Spoils than usual.

Since everything about Pillage and Spoils disappears after use, it might be a very nice way to kickstart a treasureless deck.  Spoils can provide the cash you need for your first Grand Market or Goons, and then you're off to the races.  This is further facilitated by Squire, in that Squire can get you to Pillage without treasure as well!
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2012, 11:22:32 am »
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An important feature of Rats is going to be how fast you can run down the Rat pile to end the game with an engine deck.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2012, 11:22:51 am »
+15

So, since Robz hasn't posted yet... I feel this urge to ask and answer "But how do these cards combo with scout?"
Well, Rats is easy - they trash all of those ugly treasures and actions, so your scouts will draw all of your delicious victory cards for you.
Pillage, well that lets you get rid of your opponents' scouts from their hands, so at least it's good in the mirror.
And spoils don't sit around clogging your deck up, so once you use them once, they won't interfere with your scouts grabbing that green for you. Also, since you only use them once, they encourage you to buy green right now, so go scout! Better than gold!

Good work, but this is really just scratching the surface of how the new Dark Ages cards combo with Scout, or as I'm now calling Scout, Double Wharfebank (It's like a Wharf and a Mountebank times 2).

How They Combo With Scout, Part 4

Rats: Okay, first you play Scout, so now you know what all your next cards are, and you put the one you want on top. Then you play Rats, and you get that card! And you can play it. This combo is basically a little stronger than Hamlet/Library.

Pillage: Okay, you just keep buying Scout. Scout, Scout, Scout (or Double Wharfebank, Double Wharfebank, Double Wharfebank). And hey, you and the other players are Pillaging each other. Well, now when you get Pillaged, they make you discard a Scout, it's no big deal! Because you have 4 other Scouts in hand. This is a rush strategy.

Spoils: Since you can't buy this Treasure, you can buy Scout instead.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2012, 11:25:31 am »
+1

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pied Piper
Action - $3

Reveal a card from your hand.  Reveal cards from your deck until you've revealed four duplicates of the card from your hand.  Trash all the duplicates, trash the revealed card from your hand, and discard the rest of the revealed cards.
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Fangz

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2012, 11:26:32 am »
0

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.
Quote from: lespeutere
Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

Yes, but not any old trasher will combo effectively - the trasher must derive effective value from the fact that you have a rats there, and not an estate or a copper, and the trasher must be inexpensive enough to be picked up despite having a deck with many non-self replacing cards.

Hermit, for instance would be just as effective trashing estates for silvers directly. And buying a rat, then a hermit, to have a poor man's Mine would probably be a bad idea. Forge would probably only be effective in a very rare sort of engine, because it'll be difficult to afford in time. Graverobber or expand might work, but without a strong $7, would function identically to a more expensive, less flexible remodel.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:30:58 am by Fangz »
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2012, 11:28:06 am »
0

An important feature of Rats is going to be how fast you can run down the Rat pile to end the game with an engine deck.

Short of buying them, I don't see how any deck could run out the rats with any points leftover (okay, VP token decks could do this, since they don't care about victory cards). In order to secure all 20 rats, you need to have 20 cards to replace in your engine, or meticulously setup your deck so that rats will only ever draw other rats and don't have to trash anything. Neither of these seem likely.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:29:43 am by mnavratil »
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2012, 11:30:12 am »
+2

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.
Quote from: lespeutere
Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

Yes, but not any old trasher will combo effectively - the trasher must derive effective value from the fact that you have a rats there, and not an estate or a copper, and the trasher must be inexpensive enough to be picked up despite having a deck with many non-self replacing cards.

Hermit, for instance would be just as effective trashing estates for silvers directly. And buying a rat, then a hermit, to have a poor man's Mine would probably be a bad idea. Forge would probably only be effective in a very rare sort of engine, because it'll be difficult to afford in time. Graverobber might work, but without a strong $7, would function identically to a more expensive, less flexible remodel.

I think Apprentice would be best here.  Use the Rats to get rid of your Estates and Coppers, then Apprentice the Rats for +5 cards.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2012, 11:32:13 am »
0

Ways in which your engine running out the rats pile can help you win, even though you have to trash, like, everything:
1. Your opponent is on a negative score.
2. You have VP on mats (haven, native village, most notably island) that gives you the lead
3. You have VP in play (great hall, nobles, and with black market, harem)
4. You have VP chips
5. You have enough money and buys left over to buy enough vp to give you the lead anyway.


Oh, I guess you could just have even more cards than that, too.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #115 on: August 09, 2012, 11:39:23 am »
+1

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!
Maybe this is another 'joke', but workshop doesn't mention the supply either, and you can't gain followers with it, or a not-in-the-kingdom fishing village, or....

... a Jack of (all) Spades.
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Serialian

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #116 on: August 09, 2012, 11:42:35 am »
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Seems like rats, hamlet and poor house would combo well enough together. Extra buys, extra actions and a deck o crap.
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Fangz

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #117 on: August 09, 2012, 11:45:47 am »
+2

Re: Pillage...

I think that actually, in some sense, what you are *really* buying with this card are the two spoils. Because the attack is one time, it (in most cases, without Graverobber shenanigans) only works to offset your tempo loss from buying the pillage - in most cases, the damage you do by discarding one card of theirs would be, in my mind, pretty similar (or perhaps, even inferior) to the price to you of soaking a $5 turn on it and then playing it with an action.

Seems like rats, hamlet and poor house would combo well enough together. Extra buys, extra actions and a deck o crap.

Surely hamlet/poor house would be the combo here.
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #118 on: August 09, 2012, 11:49:20 am »
0

Day 4:

Rats: A cantrip trasher for $4.  Pretty nice, huh.  Except if it's your only source of trashing it really is just going to spread through your deck like a plague (har har), and you'll be left with either a lot of dead cards or trashing everything good.  There's probably a way you can play with fire here- Bishop is the first thing that comes to mind- but my first impression is that you're likely to get burned pretty often if you go Rats.  Definitely looks like it needs some other source of trashing to be viable, and if you have other trashing that makes it less attractive in the first place. My first impression is therefore that this is probably really weak, but it could infrequently usable be part of a coordinated trashing strategy with something that doesn't hit Copper, say (Hermit!), and then ends up spending most of its Actions keeping the rat problem in check.  Which could work, but also could be more trouble than it's worth.

Pillage: Targeted discard!  And the way to balance it is to make it a one-shot, that's actually kind of brilliant.  At this point Donald is just pretty clearly f***ing with us.  Tomorrow's preview is goin g to include a cantrip Moat, you heard it here first.  Now, a one-shot $5 is hard to go for even if the shot is nasty, so it seems to include Spoils as a way to rebalance it.  The combined effect of one-shot targeted discard, with an aftereffect of two Golds in your next pass through, is that this looks like something that's going to be great for Big Money decks playing versus an engine.  Knock out your opponents' key card, and get a one-time cash infusion sure to be good for a Province or two. 

But it does nothing for you the turn you play it, which is more often than not the hallmark of a weak attack (Saboetur, Bureaucrat).  A nasty, nasty card whose power level I am very unsure of.

Spoils: Now, see, it would've been great if Feodums counted Spoils.  Though you'd have to store them up and not use them then.  I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.  That might make it easier to run this pile out.  Obviously most decks will be thrilled to add some Spoils to their warchest, but relying on Spoils as your primary source of income could lead to nasty over-greening problems after they're gone. 

Now to see what others have said.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #119 on: August 09, 2012, 11:52:46 am »
+2

Spoils: I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.

Donald X says explicitly in the preview paragraphs that there will be non-one-shot Spoils-giving kingdom cards.
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #120 on: August 09, 2012, 12:00:43 pm »
0

Spoils: I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.

Donald X says explicitly in the preview paragraphs that there will be non-one-shot Spoils-giving kingdom cards.

Ah, duh.  I should read more closely.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2012, 12:08:56 pm »
0

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2012, 12:10:05 pm »
+1

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?

True. Spoils gets returns to its stack when you play it, and Herbalist's power activates during cleanup.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2012, 12:19:36 pm »
+1

I believe it was Wandering Winder in yesterday's preview forum that mentioned that this expansion is shaping up to be much more tactical than previous expansions.  And just think, we have only seen 9 of the 35 kingdom cards so far.  And we are still yet to see Shelters and the upgrade card.  If these few cards are changing our whole approach to the game, what else does Donald have up his sleeve?  Whatever it is, it is going to be great!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2012, 12:21:49 pm »
0

I believe it was Wandering Winder in yesterday's preview forum that mentioned that this expansion is shaping up to be much more tactical than previous expansions.  And just think, we have only seen 9 of the 35 kingdom cards so far.  And we are still yet to see Shelters and the upgrade card.  If these few cards are changing our whole approach to the game, what else does Donald have up his sleeve?  Whatever it is, it is going to be great!

At 26 kingdom cards left, it means there's a whole Seaside or Hinterlands worth of Kingdom cards remaining (plus the aforementioned upgraded card and Shelters, and the non-obvious Ruin).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 12:22:56 pm by sherwinpr »
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